AHB Wiki: Using Coopers Bottle Yeast

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Thank you BF for all your detective work. The issue is settled, and you seem well connected at Coopers! Would this yeast be any good in a Lager? I'm keen to give it a try, but my next planned brew is lager. Thanks again. -CJS
 
I'm just trying my first glass out of the keg now.

I'm very happy with this effort. The aroma is really very close to CPA. Flavour is very good. Subtly fruity. Maybe just a little too 'malty', and the colour a little dark -- more like CSA, but with CPA gravity. I used JW Trad Ale. Next time I'll cut it a bit, maybe do 50/50 with Pils malt.

But it's not like I'm complaining. This is an excellent beer. In spite of the high attenuation it doesn't seem overly dry.

I'm going to reuse this yeast for a Cooper's Dark Ale clone next up.
 
Actually makes me wonder: what other styles have people used this yeast for? I suppose it could work well in most English-style ales, especially without the sugar addition so the FG doesn't get too low.
 
And the answer to the sugar question ... I feel like these two bits of info should go somewhere prominent so every time the debate starts again we can easily reference them :)

----------------

No, I don't have time to surf the net but someone emailed me the post so I
thought I'd better apologise. It really is a mystery (where the name came
from).

Re the sugar: Original Pale Ale is an all-malt brew, apart from priming
sugar, which is liquid invert sugar (sucrose) and Sparkling Ale can have up
to 5% sugar in the wort at times, depending on the quality of the malt.
Nothing like the 30 - 40% sugar that goes into some of the mainstream lager
beers in Australia.


Cheers, Frank.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2008 12:44 PM
To: Frank Akers
Subject: RE: CSA yeast


Oh! I think you saw my post on aussiehomebrewer then?

Well at the risk of prying into industrial secrets, can you comment on the
debate about whether there is sugar in the CSA and CPA wort?

regards
Samantha

> > I've got no idea where I got Megan from either! Sorry
> > about that Samantha.
> >
> > Cheers, Frank.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Samantha Lane [mailto:[email protected]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, 22 April 2008 5:49 PM
> > To: Frank Akers
> > Subject: Re: CSA yeast
> >
> >
> > Thanks Frank! Hopefully we can put the myth that the
> > bottling yeast is different to rest now.
> > Although anyone who's used the yeast from the bottles can tell by
> > taste that's the case!
> >
> > thanks again
> > Samantha
> >
> > Frank Akers wrote:
>> > > G'day Megan, yes we are aware of this practice - in fact
>> > > we encourage it by providing a procedure for those
>> > > wanting to culture our yeast from the bottle. The same strain of
>> > > yeast is used for seeding the bottles as for primary fermentation.
>> > > For a more detailed description of our procedures do the virtual
>> > > tour:
> > http://www.coopers.com.au/virtualBrewTour/default.php >
>> > > Cheers,
>> > >
>> > > Frank Akers
>> > > Customer Service
>> > > Coopers Brewery
>> > > 461 South Road
>> > > Regency Park
>> > > SA 5010
>> > >
>> > > Ph: 08 8440 1800
>> > >
>> > > If you like the beer, you'll love the Club!
>> > >
>> > > http://www.coopers.com.au
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Samantha Lane [mailto:[email protected]]
>> > > Sent: Sunday, 20 April 2008 8:09 AM
>> > > To: [email protected]
>> > > Subject: CSA yeast
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Hi,
>> > >
>> > > I'm sure you know that many homebrewers culture your yeast from
>> > > CSA and CPA bottles. There is some debate whether the yeast in the
>> > > bottles is the same as that used for primary fermentation.
>> > > Can you tell us the truth please?
>> > >
>> > > regards
>> > > Samantha
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
 
Well there you go then, I will now have to do some more work on my CPA clone and see if I can get the same results using an all malt recipe. Looks like I might have to change the mash regime as well to get the kind of attenuation required.

Thanks for taking the time to confirm the sugar situation Braufrau, I will put a link the this post in my CPA recipe discussion thread.

Cheers
Andrew
 
Hey guys. While not trying to make this an all out clone (which it is far from) my latest batch of Willamette Sparkling Ale has flavour characteristics that are strikingly similar to CSA. I found a protein rest at 55 degrees for 20 minutes always seems to give me better attenuation.

For the record I used 5.7% sugar (I used Cooper's brewing sugar LOL!) in mine and say it would be spot on. If you were to sub the hops in this one for POR you'd go very close. I also lightly caramelised the first runnings to deepen the colour which probably sits a shade darker than the Promash specs. FWIW the actual colour is similar to CSA too.

What I find with this yeast is while a bit of it is still in suspension (takes a little while to clear) the flavours are more authentic when the beer is lightly hazy. As it clears over time the flavours always become a little more neutral.

Thanks for the great findings Braufrau. :) I have to concur I think the strain we take from the bottle is similar if not entirely the same as the primary strain. Near enough for me anyway.

WSA

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

06-B Light Hybrid Beer, Blonde Ale

Min OG: 1.038 Max OG: 1.054
Min IBU: 15 Max IBU: 28
Min Clr: 4 Max Clr: 12 Color in EBC

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 45.00 Wort Size (L): 45.00
Total Grain (kg): 8.70
Anticipated OG: 1.056 Plato: 13.86
Anticipated EBC: 14.3
Anticipated IBU: 27.6
Brewhouse Efficiency: 90 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 58.06 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.044 SG 10.85 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
92.0 8.00 kg. JWM Traditional Ale Malt Australia 1.038 8
2.3 0.20 kg. Weyermann CaraWheat Germany 1.037 160
5.7 0.50 kg. Corn Sugar Generic 1.046 0

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
35.00 g. Wye Target Pellet 10.00 24.8 60 min.
20.00 g. Willamette Pellet 4.60 1.7 15 min.
20.00 g. Willamette Pellet 4.60 1.1 5 min.


Yeast
-----

Coopers Australian Ale


Water Profile
-------------

Profile:
Profile known for:

Calcium(Ca): 0.0 ppm
Magnesium(Mg): 0.0 ppm
Sodium(Na): 0.0 ppm
Sulfate(SO4): 0.0 ppm
Chloride(Cl): 0.0 ppm
biCarbonate(HCO3): 0.0 ppm

pH: 0.00


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name:

Total Grain kg: 8.20
Total Water Qts: 13.00 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water L: 12.30 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass: 0.00
Grain Temp: 20.50 C


Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
protein rest 5 20 55 55 Infuse 64 12.30 1.50
Sacc Rest 5 60 65 65 Infuse 90 6.29 2.27


Total Water Qts: 19.65 - After Additional Infusions
Total Water L: 18.59 - After Additional Infusions
Total Mash Volume L: 24.07 - After Additional Infusions

All temperature measurements are degrees Celsius.
All infusion amounts are in Liters.
All infusion ratios are Liters/Kilograms.


Notes
-----

Lightly caramelised the first runnings


Warren -
 
"Re the sugar: Original Pale Ale is an all-malt brew, apart from priming
sugar, which is liquid invert sugar (sucrose) and Sparkling Ale can have up
to 5% sugar in the wort at times, depending on the quality of the malt.
Nothing like the 30 - 40% sugar that goes into some of the mainstream lager
beers in Australia.

Cheers, Frank. "

So if this is the case, I guess you'd need a really low mash temp to get the fermentability. Also, the base malt they use must have a very light character if it makes up >90% of the grist.

Without trying to slavishly copy the original ingredients, I guess you could get a similar result with a 'maltier' malt and a dose of sugar. I certainly think my current version comes pretty close and it has 18% sugar.
 
"Re the sugar: Original Pale Ale is an all-malt brew, apart from priming
sugar, which is liquid invert sugar (sucrose) and Sparkling Ale can have up
to 5% sugar in the wort at times, depending on the quality of the malt.
Nothing like the 30 - 40% sugar that goes into some of the mainstream lager
beers in Australia.

Cheers, Frank. "

So if this is the case, I guess you'd need a really low mash temp to get the fermentability. Also, the base malt they use must have a very light character if it makes up >90% of the grist.

Without trying to slavishly copy the original ingredients, I guess you could get a similar result with a 'maltier' malt and a dose of sugar. I certainly think my current version comes pretty close and it has 18% sugar.

I've been more than happy with my version as well and find it's very close to the mark, so it really doesn't need changing....
However I am such a purist at heart that the challenge of "cloning" this brew using ingredients as close to what Coopers use is too much to pass up :p , I think I will try adapting my mash schedule for a more attenuative wort.

Andrew
 
There was a view that the Mild Ale was simply the Pale without the sugar.

This kind of upsets that theory.
 
CJS,

I wouldn't recommend it for a lager.

A lager needs to be brewed cold, around 10 - 12. Whilst the Coopers ale yeast is fairly hardy I'm sure it would struggle at the required temp. and not provide the appropriate flavours.

You would do better to get a good lager yeast.


My 2 c worth.

Wally


Does anybody know the specifications of the Coopers Ale yeast (from the bottle) eg. temperature range?

Thanks

Graham E
 
I have a dark ale fermenting with CPA yeast at 15c (ambient) now. It seems to be handling it fine, although there's a bit of 'arse' about it. I think this sulphury smell is normal for ales fermented at lower temps, and I assume that will dissipate with a bit of time.
 
I just drink a middy @ a bit screw the cap back on the stubby. Then use a coffey cup half full of hot water mix 2 heaped desert spoons full of ldme, mix well put a thermometer in it, & when it is about 26c pour it into the coopers stubby, half fill it with the left overs give it a good swirl then put an airlock on it . I sanatise before hand with hot water wrap stubby up with a tea towel & leave at the back of a fridge ( made up a wooden frame with cardboard on top with holes in it). Monitor with thermometer, ranges from 26 to 22c. 2 to 3 days it gets a kruesan (bad spelling) about 5mm high & away you go. Never failed makes a great american pale ale. Just doing a muntons ipa using wyeast whitbread I've had a bit of trouble not as easy as the coopers pale ale yeast but then again made a few blews first brew in 3 years (kids)
 
I agree totally Geoffi, and it's good to see your FG ended where it should too. Please post your results when you sample them.

Andrew


Well I know I'm about a month late to join this discussion but I actually brewed two sparkling ales recently with yeast cultured from coopers sparkling ale.

Again I was under the same impression that there is no way there beers could go down so far without the use of adjuncts like sugar.

The first attempted started at 1.050 and contained about 15% sugar ( I know it was a tad excessive ) and it finished at 1.001 ( no that's not a typo ).

The second attempt contained no sugar and started at 1.046 and finished at 1.007 which is very close to the sparkling ale that I measured to culture the yeast from.

So after this experiment I am convinced that with the coopers yeast it is possible for them to produce the pale ale and the sparkling ale without using sugar.
 
I'm still finding it difficult to believe that CPA can finish with such a low FG without sugar, and if its an all malt brew why the hell isn't it being advertised as one? :huh:
With the current generic beer landscape awash in sugar this would have to be a major marketing point!

The mouth feel also is pretty thin for an all malt beer IMHO, a beer at 4.2% alc which finishes at around 1.003 (as I'm led to believe?) would suggest an OG of around 1.042-45. I guess we just have to believe that they are a commercial brewery with access to better technology that enables them to achieve this.

An all malt brew at 1.042, with their yeast which attenuates well, and a low mash temp I still reckon I could only bope to achieve probably 1.007-8 FG.

Excellent info Braufrau

Now I'm curious and want to have to have a go at this,

Cheers
BB
 
Chris, what was your mash schedule for the sparkling ale with no sugar?


Wally

Here is the recipe and mash schedule. Would be interested to know it anyone else can reproduce similar results, or if my experiment should be considered an anomaly.

I also tried to reuse the yeast in a Russian Imperial Stout, but got no where near the attenuation of the other fore mentioned beers (only about 70%).


Batch size 18L

Grain

3.5 Kg BB Ale Malt
250gm Wheat Malt
250gm Wyermans Munich II

Hops

10gm Pride of Ringwood @ 60min
10gm East Kent Golding @ 60min
10gm Pride of Ringwood @ 20 min

Mash
Single step @ 61C
 
massive aeration of the wort would defiantly help..
according to Chris from whitelabs, most home brewer methods of aerating are largely insufficient to get the yeast to the same fg as a commercial brewery.
 
I've recently done a CPA clone using cultured CPA bottle yeast, and I can't get the bugger to carbonate in the bottle.

I bulk primed to 2.6 volumes (165g dex in 23 litres) in a second fermenter, and left most of the yeast cake behind in the primary fermenter.

It's been in the bottle since 11 April and is still quite flat. At a guess, i'd say it was about half way to the intended carbonation level.

The bottles are sitting in a cupboard that maintains about 18C.

Are they likely to continue building pressure, or is it likely that the situation is terminal?

Sam
 
Being new to this process,

does anybody know which coopers kits (excluding pale ale!) does the harvisted pale ale yeast suit?

Cheers
Andrew
 
I've recently done a CPA clone using cultured CPA bottle yeast, and I can't get the bugger to carbonate in the bottle.

I bulk primed to 2.6 volumes (165g dex in 23 litres) in a second fermenter, and left most of the yeast cake behind in the primary fermenter.

It's been in the bottle since 11 April and is still quite flat. At a guess, i'd say it was about half way to the intended carbonation level.

The bottles are sitting in a cupboard that maintains about 18C.

Are they likely to continue building pressure, or is it likely that the situation is terminal?

Sam

G'day Sammy,
I don't think its the yeast, 165g of dextrose is around 7g per/L
I have found consistently that it requires more dextrose to achieve the same level of carbonation as sugar.
I typically for moderate carbonation use around 9g of dextrose per/L and 10g for lagers because like you I had so many flat beers and just kept adding more until I got it near right.

Cheers,
BB
 
I should add that the above gram amounts I have stated will be altered according to FG.
BB
 

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