Ag Newbie Vs Pilsner

[jonw]

Hello Folks,

I've made quite a few partials and a couple of AGs with reasonable success. I've just bought myself a chest freezer to convert into a brew fridge, and I'm keen to make use of it!

I'd like to make a pilsner next, but I've read a lot about paler beers being more difficult. Am I biting off more than I can chew trying to tackle a Pilsner? If not, does anybody have any hints to help make the experience a success?

I'm thinking of a simple recipe: 100% Weyerman Pilsner, Czech Saaz, and a White Labs Pilsner yeast. I'll ferment at ~11 degrees, then rack to secondary and lager at ~2 degrees for a couple of weeks. I'm in Sydney (with my water coming from Prospect) so I'd imagine I'd be well advised to add a little Gypsum to the mash to bring the pH down.

All advice is welcome.

Cheers,

Jon

 

[devo]

Hi Jon

I wouldn't say more difficult but rather that a pilsner or any lager tend to demand a greater level of restraint from the brewer. Allowing the beer plenty of time to do it's thing throughout fermentation and conditioning is probably where the challenge lays. It can be quite hard to not be tempted to tap a keg before it's due time especially when you are running low on other brews.

devo

 

[Steve]

Hi Jon

I wouldn't say more difficult but rather that a pilsner or any lager tend to demand a greater level of restraint from the brewer. Allowing the beer plenty of time to do it's thing throughout fermentation and conditioning is probably where the challenge lays. It can be quite hard to not be tempted to tap a keg before it's due time especially when you are running low on other brews.

devo

Ditto. I dont believe they are any harder than any other styles. Temps the main thing. Once you have that sorted and stable you are laughing. Sounds like you have everything worked out. Go for it. Have a look in links below and have a read. Nothing to it except you need patience (which I dont)!
Cheers
Steve

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=10492

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=15001

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=14703

 

[BoilerBoy]

Hello Folks,

I'd like to make a pilsner next, but I've read a lot about paler beers being more difficult. Am I biting off more than I can chew trying to tackle a Pilsner? If not, does anybody have any hints to help make the experience a success?


Jon

I have heard and read this as well, I dont consider myself anywhere near an expert, but I think the reasoning is that paler beers leave flaws with less place to hide.

However, if your confident with your temp control I cant really see it being any different to any other beer, a lager was the first AG I ever did, infact it was what pushed me over the line into it in the first place, mainly because extract just didn't seem to cut it with pilsners.

So I reckon go for it!

Cheers
BB

 

[enoch]

I certainly would say don't do a lager although it took bloody long time for me to do one which was mainly about fridge real estate.
However, if you are fairly early into AG the reason to perhaps look at more ales and stouts versus lagers until you have your system really settled in (you may have already) is that the turn around time is quicker. You will know if you have done a good ale in a week or two but wont have a real handle on the lager for 3-6 weeks - which gives you more chances to tweak your system.

 

[Screwtop]

Go for it, I don't find lagers more difficult, in fact I think making a good ale is much more of a balancing act. Use 189 dried yeast to keep it as simple and quick as you can. Rehydrate and pitch at 9 lifting to 11 after fermentation begins, once gravity is below 1.020 raise the temp slowly to 18 for 2 days. Rack to keg, chill, force carbonate and cold store/lager at 1 for a couple of weeks.

I left making Lagers until I had 50 odd AG's under my belt, thought they must be much more difficult. Made two Pilseners first up to maximise fermentation space (may as well have two fermenting as there is room in my ferm fridge for two fermenters) and followed this with two Bocks ontop of the yeast cakes. Made more since then and find them easy.

The clean fermentation in lagers leaves little but the malt and hop of choice profiles behind in the beer, much less to balance than with ales. To produce good ales the yeast and fermentation profile bust be balanced along with the malt characteristics and also bitterness and aroma, I find them much more complex than lagers both in designing the recipe and drinking.

 

[lonte]

I'm thinking of a simple recipe: 100% Weyerman Pilsner, Czech Saaz, and a White Labs Pilsner yeast.

Looks good and simple. Depending on how high you want to bitter it maybe think of a higher AA bittering hop to keep the vegetable matter down, say Magnum p'raps. Also, make sure you use a starter, or pitch two vials of yeast. I'd also chuck in some yeast nutrient to the boil.

And most of all (and it's been said above) give it time. Time to ferment _and_ time to laager.

 

[Screwtop]

Looks good and simple. Depending on how high you want to bitter it maybe think of a higher AA bittering hop to keep the vegetable matter down, say Magnum p'raps. Also, make sure you use a starter, or pitch two vials of yeast. I'd also chuck in some yeast nutrient to the boil.

And most of all (and it's been said above) give it time. Time to ferment _and_ time to laager.

Good advice on the yeast use two packs of 189.

 

[Tseay]

If your water is coming from Prospect then it will be relatively high in Chloramines whcih will convert to chlorophenols and a subsequent "medicine" taste which might be hard to hide in a light beer like Pilsner. If you have the space/container, set aside your brew water the night before and add 1/4 of a Camben tablet ( generally free from an obliging HBS). the chlorine will go on standing but the chloramines will need treatment. Check out the Sydney water web site for the typical analysis of Prospect water. You might get away without treating the water, but if you've got the time, I'd do it.

http://www.sydneywater.com.au/WaterQuality...gWaterAnalysis/

 

[matti]

Try using 5% Carapilsmalt and a buffer like PH5.2 that can be purchased by retailers on AHB.

(Personally I would draw a decoction out to ensure Ph and flavour come out more Pilsner-like.
Adjust Ph to sparge water to about PH 5.8-6.5 and mash out as recipe desired.)

Saaz-Flavour it to suit water
Ibu 15-20 60 min
ibu 7-10 30 min
to taste at 15 min about the same as flame out
And 0.5g/L at flame out.

Cheers

 

[crozdog]

Once you have temp control sorted, why not give lagers a go. I did and found em just as easy to make (but bloody harder to perfect ).

I typically use 87% pils, 10.5% light munich & 2.5% carapils for the grist and BSAAZ to bitter (about 25 ibu) & use saaz for flavour (6 ibu) and aroma (3 ibu) - :chug: .

The yeast you select will impact how long you need to lager due to the amount of sulphur compounds produced. If you can access white labs, try czech budjovice or the southern german lager (838) - they are both low sulphur and produce a great drop. Step them up to a decent size starter if possible

single infusion at 66 with a batch sparge work for me.

 

[beers]

I'd imagine I'd be well advised to add a little Gypsum to the mash to bring the pH down.

Jon,

I'd be inclined to keep the Gypsum out of a Pilsener & look at other ways of bringing down the mash pH. The 5.2 stabilizer would be an easy option. (I can sling some your way if you want to try it)

I typically use 87% pils, 10.5% light munich & 2.5% carapils for the grist and BSAAZ to bitter (about 25 ibu) & use saaz for flavour (6 ibu) and aroma (3 ibu) - :chug: .

Looks like a good recipe to me

Dan

 

[grinder]

I havn't had much luck with pilseners in the past, mainly because of my lack of patience and an inaccurate thermometer (it was 10 deg's out, was mashing at 75deg's!).
The last one I did I gave it more time (2 months) and it ended up quite a nice drop.
Patience is the key to this style.

 

[Kai]

If you don't have any experience producing lagers then I'd suggest you make your first all-grain an ale. Don't introduce too many variables at once.

Or, just go for it.

 

[jonw]

Thanks for all the advice. I think I'll go for it and see how it turns out.

Dan, thanks for the offer of the pH stabiliser - I'll take you up on that if I may. That means we'll have to hook up for a beer sometime soon :icon_cheers:

Cheers,

Jon

 

[lonte]

couple more thoughts, a bit of melanoidan malt in the grist can (sort of) introduce the decoction mash characteristics without the extra hassle. Also, I tend to mash pretty low to dry my Pils out, 65*C as a rule but once as low as 63*C when a step mash ran out of room in the Mash tun and couldn't get any more infusion water in!

 

[beers]

That means we'll have to hook up for a beer sometime soon :icon_cheers:

Absolutely Email me.

 

[jonw]

Thought I'd update this thread with my results now that I've cracked the first bottle of this Pilsner.

I ended up using 95% Pilsner and 5% Melanoidin (IIRC - don't have the software in front of me) with Czech Saaz at 60/40/20, and a single step infusion at 66deg. Fermented with White Labs Czech Budgie yeast at 10deg and lagered at 1deg for a couple of weeks.

I'm very pleased with the results. The beer cleared very quickly in the bottle, but is quite cloudy after chilling, so I guess I have a protein haze problem - I might try adding some Polyclar during conditioning in future. I bottle conditioned in the fridge at 18deg and they were gassed up within a week.

The beer pours with a nice head. It's quite dry with a malty after-taste, although I think some of the maltyness might actually be butteryness from diacetyl. I did do a diacetyl rest, so I don't know why I still have that - maybe it'll improve with age. It certainly has the Pilsner crispness, and the hop additions were right on the mark.

Cheers,

Jon

 

[bonj]

A few things that may help with your chill haze are:

1. a good long 90 minute rolling boil. Everything I've read suggests that this is a very important step to reducing chill haze.
2. kettle finings such as koppafloc in the last 15 minutes of the boil. They bind to the protein and drop them out of solution.
3. Don't add hops until 30 minutes into the boil. Some may disagree with this, but according to the literature, it helps.

This document may help you understand what causes beer hazes, and how to combat them:
Beer Hazes