A Couple Thoughts From A Newish Ag Brewer

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black_labb

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just a couple thoughts on brewing AG. i have done 6 biab, no chill brews (2 not bottled/drunk yet) and have a few ideas i'd like some more experienced brewers to think about a give their thoughts.

1. using multiple smaller cubes (say 1x10L, 1x 5L cubes and a few 1-2L bottles that are sturdy and can stand up to the heat) instead of 1 big one. this allows you to essentially step up your yeast starter with the beer you are making. its usually reccomended to step up liquid yeasts and even dry yeasts to 1-3L of a starter. by using smaller cubes you can easily step up the yeast while doing the fermentation in the carboy. less cleaning as you are stepping up the yeast in the primary fermentation vessel. this is probably more useful for high gravity worts.

2. when growing yeast you want to aerate the wort so the yeast has sufficient oxygen. this can be difficult as a layer of co2 pushes the oxygen out of the top of the fermentation vessel. i've seen someone mention that they use a straw to suck (not blow) the air out of a starter so that fresh air with oxygen replaces the air (co2) in the starter bottle. why not use a plastic bottle where you can squeeze out the co2 and replace it with oxygen by allowing the bottle to expand again suking air in. you can then seal the lid and give it a good shake to aerate the wort nicely. i understand that this could be introducing bacteria/wild yeasts from the air but thats a fact with any method of aeration. the only way to get out of that is to have a pure oxygen bottle bubbling through the starter.

3. i have been collecting as much of the wort from the boiler as i physically can into the cube (trub included) and have been allowing the trub to settle to the bottom over a couple days and then syphoning out the clear wort without moving the cube and disturbing the trub. it gives me very clear wort and by allowing it to settle nicely i should be able to get a bit more wort into the fermentor. by syphoning from a reasonable height the wort should be nicely aerated. i have only done one lighter flavoured beer which would show faults of the method better and it tastes great (and that beer had the bag fall in dropping roughly 1kg of grain out of the bag into the wort. i collected what i could with a sifter but would have left some extra trub elements in the wort through the boil)

4. pale ale malt for darker lagers. nothing too interesting but i'm not a big fan of lighter lagers like pilseners and the such but am doing a couple darker lagers. is there any reason to use pilsener malt over pale ale when you are going to be adding munich or similar in reasonable quantities. they are really pretty similar just the pale ale is kilned a bit longer or hotter and the munich is kilned for longer/hotter again. i'm also considering using the ale malt for a dubbel/trippel just because i prefer to buy 25kg of malt bags and dont know how much pils i would use. i have been roasiting most of my own malts (and successfully made some crystal as well) so i dont buy much malts aside from wheat outside of the bulk packs.


just curious what people think of these ideas. i've only been doing method 2 and 3 but am thinking i'll grab some smaller cubes before doing a couple belgians for no. 1
 
i've heard of people stepping up yeast starters/dry yeast - you'll have less lag phase but it's only really necessary for high OG worts.

growing starters: i have a mini 5L fermenter that i have used a couple of times, basically it has an agitator (gearhead 12V motor on the top which runs some paddles in the fermenter) and an airstone powered by an aquarium airpump - hooked up to a .2 micron filter (to make it sterile air). It grows a LOT of yeast. typically, the biggest (and arguable the only required) difference you can make to your starter is to have a stirrer. knocks out CO2 and allows more oxygen to be dissolved, as well as keeping the yeast in suspension.

Trub: get rid of it, you end up with a nicer beer for shizzle.

pale v pilsner malt. pilsner has a typically sweeter malt flavour that is more suitable for pilsners/lagers. not much to say here other than have a play and see which you prefer.
 
just a couple thoughts on brewing AG. i have done 6 biab, no chill brews (2 not bottled/drunk yet) and have a few ideas i'd like some more experienced brewers to think about a give their thoughts.

1. using multiple smaller cubes (say 1x10L, 1x 5L cubes and a few 1-2L bottles that are sturdy and can stand up to the heat) instead of 1 big one. this allows you to essentially step up your yeast starter with the beer you are making. its usually reccomended to step up liquid yeasts and even dry yeasts to 1-3L of a starter. by using smaller cubes you can easily step up the yeast while doing the fermentation in the carboy. less cleaning as you are stepping up the yeast in the primary fermentation vessel. this is probably more useful for high gravity worts.

My no chill vessels have taps so I can feed the appropriate wort to the yeast as I grow it or when I make a starter.

For aeration I just pour from height and occassionally also use a whisk. Then I just let the yeast do its thing.
 
Why not just use LDME for starters, normally you don't want hops in starters.

If you pour the wort into the fermentors there is enough oxygen for the brew.

QldKev
 
Trying to match the profile. Supposedly (I have read anyway) the yeast produce specific enzymes according to the profile of what's being thrown at them. I normally start them with boiled cooled water and DME to hit 1040 then gradually feed with a bit of the to be fermented wort.

I have heard hops aren't good in starters but am not sure why that is. Anyone have an explanation?

By the way my starters and step ups are all fermented at fermentation temperatures and not agitated after the initial oxygenation so it all goes back into the beer.
 
I have heard hops aren't good in starters but am not sure why that is. Anyone have an explanation?
I have always assumed that it's because of its anti-biotic properties, but that's just a guess.
 
Trying to match the profile. Supposedly (I have read anyway) the yeast produce specific enzymes according to the profile of what's being thrown at them. I normally start them with boiled cooled water and DME to hit 1040 then gradually feed with a bit of the to be fermented wort.

I have heard hops aren't good in starters but am not sure why that is. Anyone have an explanation?

By the way my starters and step ups are all fermented at fermentation temperatures and not agitated after the initial oxygenation so it all goes back into the beer.


In brewing we need to minimise the effects of cross contamination from wild yeasts. Hops slow down the process of our good yeast maturation allowing the wild yeast which may be at a more mature stage of development a chance to take on a stronger hold, increasing the off flavours associated with it, to which these wild yeast cells will be carried across to the final beer.

QldKev
 
I have always assumed that it's because of its anti-biotic properties, but that's just a guess.

The anti-biotic properties are only minimal and don't cause us a huge concern.

QldKev
 
In brewing we need to minimise the effects of cross contamination from wild yeasts. Hops slow down the process of our good yeast maturation allowing the wild yeast which may be at a more mature stage of development a chance to take on a stronger hold, increasing the off flavours associated with it, to which these wild yeast cells will be carried across to the final beer.

QldKev

Interesting.

Hopefully the first stage of growing with DME gets the yeast active enough to be resistant. This method has worked for me in the past but it's good to know the risks of what you're doing. That way if it does stuff up I can point my finger to that stage in the process and say 'that was the culprit'

I'm about to do the exact same method with a no-chill cream stout I brewed yesterday. My impression was the profile of the starter needs to suit the profile of the beer, otherwise the starter may not be worth doing. Have I misunderstood? Should I just reserve a litre or two of wort from each brew before hopping and boil it separately to kill the bugs?

I thought some people reserved the last litre or so from the kettle, strained out hops and let break settle off then used in starters. Is DME just as good (certainly easy enough to use it and I always have some on hand).
 
Interesting.

Hopefully the first stage of growing with DME gets the yeast active enough to be resistant. This method has worked for me in the past but it's good to know the risks of what you're doing. That way if it does stuff up I can point my finger to that stage in the process and say 'that was the culprit'

I'm about to do the exact same method with a no-chill cream stout I brewed yesterday. My impression was the profile of the starter needs to suit the profile of the beer, otherwise the starter may not be worth doing. Have I misunderstood? Should I just reserve a litre or two of wort from each brew before hopping and boil it separately to kill the bugs?

I thought some people reserved the last litre or so from the kettle, strained out hops and let break settle off then used in starters. Is DME just as good (certainly easy enough to use it and I always have some on hand).

I think we are going into the old ask 10 brewers a question you will get 11 answers territory...

In my opinion, a starter is about the count of healthy viable yeast cells, and not necessary what wort they have come from. That's why you need to grow your yeast up in < 1.040 gravity, and always a lower gravity than what you indent to pitch into.

If you intend to pitch at high krausen, then maybe the starters wort will need to closer match the wort; mainly if using a dark starter into a lighter wort. But if you are going to allow the yeast to settle and pour off the beer from the top, it wont matter much.

QldKev
 
Yeah I pitch at krausen as I like active yeast to hit the wort.

10 brewers/11 answers is true but those different perspectives are interesting nonetheless.

Cheers
 
1. using multiple smaller cubes (say 1x10L, 1x 5L cubes and a few 1-2L bottles that are sturdy and can stand up to the heat) instead of 1 big one. this allows you to essentially step up your yeast starter with the beer you are making. its usually reccomended to step up liquid yeasts and even dry yeasts to 1-3L of a starter. by using smaller cubes you can easily step up the yeast while doing the fermentation in the carboy. less cleaning as you are stepping up the yeast in the primary fermentation vessel. this is probably more useful for high gravity worts.
That's an interesting idea, and I'd like to know what the results are like if you've tried the experiment.
Fermenting yeast goes through a distinct cycle, and it's been suggested that short-cutting or altering that cycle (eg: by pitching a large quantity of yeast to skip the lag/growth phase) may have a detrimental or unwanted impact on the resulting beer, suggestions of off flavours or simply not enough character from the yeast coming through. Since you're suggesting stepping up the actual beer - rather than a starter - there may be all kinds of intersting effects that has on the yeast flavors and characteristics, especially if you let it ferment out at each step.
2. when growing yeast you want to aerate the wort so the yeast has sufficient oxygen. this can be difficult as a layer of co2 pushes the oxygen out of the top of the fermentation vessel. i've seen someone mention that they use a straw to suck (not blow) the air out of a starter so that fresh air with oxygen replaces the air (co2) in the starter bottle. why not use a plastic bottle where you can squeeze out the co2 and replace it with oxygen by allowing the bottle to expand again suking air in. you can then seal the lid and give it a good shake to aerate the wort nicely. i understand that this could be introducing bacteria/wild yeasts from the air but thats a fact with any method of aeration. the only way to get out of that is to have a pure oxygen bottle bubbling through the starter.
I find it easier and simpler to use a stir plate or bottle with any kind of loose fitting lid. Unwanted bugs will not 'crawl' into the starter, so you only have to prevent them from falling in on airborne dust and the like. You can easily allow an exchange of oxygen via a porous cover like a tea-towel or the like. The stir plate will allow for adequate oxygenation or shaking the bottle with a porous cover will do the same.
3. i have been collecting as much of the wort from the boiler as i physically can into the cube (trub included) and have been allowing the trub to settle to the bottom over a couple days and then syphoning out the clear wort without moving the cube and disturbing the trub. it gives me very clear wort and by allowing it to settle nicely i should be able to get a bit more wort into the fermentor. by syphoning from a reasonable height the wort should be nicely aerated. i have only done one lighter flavoured beer which would show faults of the method better and it tastes great (and that beer had the bag fall in dropping roughly 1kg of grain out of the bag into the wort. i collected what i could with a sifter but would have left some extra trub elements in the wort through the boil)
A useful idea, and actually a recommended practice when brewing lagers according to Brewing Classic Styles, however you do increase the risk of contamination the longer you leave the wort before pitching yeast, so I'd not want to leave it more than 24h unless it was 'cubed'.

I think we are going into the old ask 10 brewers a question you will get 11 answers territory...

In my opinion, a starter is about the count of healthy viable yeast cells, and not necessary what wort they have come from. That's why you need to grow your yeast up in < 1.040 gravity, and always a lower gravity than what you indent to pitch into.

If you intend to pitch at high krausen, then maybe the starters wort will need to closer match the wort; mainly if using a dark starter into a lighter wort. But if you are going to allow the yeast to settle and pour off the beer from the top, it wont matter much.
True, true and true.

I'm one of those people that 'recycles' the last of the wort from the kettle dregs and - after adjusting the gravity (between 1.030-1.040) - use it for the next batch of starters, allowing the yeast to ferment and settle before pitching. With decent sanitation and resonable practices I'd can't imagine the hops will have any noticeable impact on bacteria or wild/wanted yeast growth.
 
wolfy
the trub is settling in a "cubed" cube. only difference to normal cubing is that there is alot of trub in there. i read somewhere that the trub can speed up infection, but i'm not going to keep the cube for months like some have. good to hear that the idea is used.

manticle.
using the taps is a good idea (assuming you dont have mounds of trub down the bottom like i do :) ). i could probably siphon only some out. am i being a bit paranoid by worrying about letting the beer get contaminated by unsealing the pasturised cube and introducing oxygen and airborn bacteria, because thats why i havent siphoned part of the beer off. do you squeeze the cube when using the tap for part of the beer or do you let air bubble up as the wort runs out?
the reason i'm siphoning the wort from the cube is to not disturb the trub in the bottom. pouring is fine when the bottom isnt full of trub.


didnt realise hops were supposed to be bad for starters. i was thinking that they were good to have as they fought bacteria while the yeast does its thing. it makes sense if the hops also inhibit the yeast itself. probably shouldnt use ipa wort for starters in the future.



thanks for the help everyone.
 
My experience is that hopped wort is fine but I'm still interested to hear perspectives on why it isn't/may not be.

I use a narrow blue willow cube so it's very easy to squeeze almost every last bit of headspace out when no chilling. When I run the tap out I don't worry that a large amount of oxygen is going to get back in - I'm letting out 500 -1000 mL max at a time. As mentioned, I've usually stepped up to at least a 1 or 2 litre wort with DME - the no chill wort is mainly to build the profile and get that yeast active when I pitch it.

Unscientific (or at least unscientific interpretation of science) but seems to work so far. I pitch active starters, not decanted, stepped up yeast.
 
If you listen to the Jamil show/brewstrong they talk about how making a starter is all about creating a maximum amount of healthy yeast. And the hop components, oils/acids whatever it is, coat the cells of the yeast (hence the mild anti-germ properties) and that can reduce viability or something along those lines. I'm not 100% sure, and I can't remember which episodes its in, so I can't check to make sure I know what I'm talking about (not very helpful I know) :p

But really it doesn't sound like its a major problem, their antibiotic properties are minimal, and many people use hopped wort without any issues. I just wouldn't go adding hops to a non hopped starter if that was the route I was taking.
 

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