AG Hefe - suddenly my confidence wanes

[Kiwifirst]

Hi y'all. Bit of a lurker here, but I wanted to post to discuss hefeweizen brewing. I have never been a big German beer fan. Couple of months back I visited the Black Forest and Bavaria and my appreciation for a freshly made HefeWeizen went up many notches. I knew as soon as I had time, I wanted to try a Hefe at home.

So, I usually make APA's, there is always a west coast Pale Ale on tap and another beer for freinds who don't like hops and bitterness. Currently that is a Kolsch. I am pretty confident with my brewing when it comes to APA's and pretty much know what result I am going to get. So my confidence in what I was going to get with my Hefe was way lower.

Tonight I kegged the Hefe, 6 days from beginning, ran from 1.051 down to 1.014, normally I'd leave it a couple more days, but my freezer has broken and its going to be 39c tomorrow.

Recipe:

2.6kg Belstmaltz Wheat
2.6kg Bestmaltz Pils
100g Wayermann Carahell

20g Hallertauer MittelFrueh - 60 mins
20g Hallertauer MittelFrueh - 10 mins

1 pkt Wyest Weihenstephan Weizen

Mashed at 65c batch sparged, boiled 60 mins.

Freezer broke down and so had to ferment in the spare bathroom with water in the bath and a wet towel.
First day at 24c, then 22c then a couple days at 20c then last 2 days at 22c.

Even though I have only just kegged it, I of course, needed to test the outcome. Bear in mind my expectations are from some Bavarian festival where the beer was served very fresh and was just delightful, especially when served by busty frauleins.

My first impression is that I can see potential but it is no where near the flavour I wanted. There is a bit of banana and then some good after taste, especially in the nose of that clove flavour, but it is all very mild and not the powerful flavour I was expecting. I was recently confused about under and over pitching yeast in a hefe and am already thinking about my next batch. So I am looking for advice...... did the 4c fluctuation make a difference? I am mashing in a cooler, so decoction is a bit difficult. Should I try the same recipe and make a starter or use 2 of the 3068 Weihenstephan or should I run even less than 1 packet? Seeing how the brew day was only 6 days ago am I jumping the gun and should expect some further development of flavour?

Sorry for the long post, I guess i have 3 years of lurking and no posting to blame for that.

Thanks ahead of time if you read all this

 

[manticle]

Do you want more clove or more banana?

 

[Kiwifirst]

Do you want more clove or more banana?

Well to be honest a bit more of everything. I like the current taste, with the a earlier banana and then finishing with the clove taste, I just want more of the same, if that makes sense. It is almost like, trying to find a way to explain it, that it is the right taste, but needs a month to develop and then it would be perfect, but I am under the impression that won't happen with a Hefe.

 

[Dan Pratt]

What's your water like?

 

[Kiwifirst]

Mg 2.2
Ca 9.4
Alk 15 mg/L

Always been good for the Pale Ales. I guess I could lower the PH a little. But looking at the 'how to brew' book and assuming I did it right. My water comes out at about 0 and/or 5.7 on the chart.

Now I am glad I spent the time reading up on that, so I could actually answer the question with more than just "wet and sometimes cold"

 

[brewtas]

You say you've just kegged it, is it carbonated yet? Carbonation can definitely help the aroma come across and will change the way you perceive the flavour.

 

[Kiwifirst]

Literally 30 mins after putting it in the keg I tried a sample and posted this. So I am very happy to read your comment I usually carbonate to about 10psi. I have this at 14psi at the moment. So maybe when it changes to carbonated and served at 7c it will be different to 22c and uncarbonated.

 

[brewtas]

It still might not be what you're after but all is not lost yet.

 

[Kiwifirst]

Yeah, for sure all 'not lost'. Just looking for more Probably jumping the gun a bit. But I am quite excited about the challenge of a brewing a good Hefe. I have my APA's down pat and enjoying a really good one right now, i must say so myself

So pushing into a new style that is not so easy to brew is a challenge, especially with the brew freezer dying in summer. oh, I see you are in Hobart, let me re-phrase that, dying in summer in Melbourne

Overnight low of 15 max 38

 

[surly]

Hey Kiwifirst, this thread may help a bit: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/76341-which-wheat-yeast-and-fermentation-temp-for-big-banana-flavouraroma/
I have just kegged my second Hefe, similar recipe to yours. My first had a strong hit of banana, second less so (all round milder, more attenuated and a bit more clove). There was a bit of inconsistency with efficiency and ferment temp, but the one DELIBERATE diff was that I made a 1L starter for the second. Just pitched the smackpack for the first.

 

[Kiwifirst]

Ye Gods, that thread just fried my brain. Too many of the 6.6% APA's me thinks.

I think the thing that is confusing me the most is the pitching rate. what is a smack pack of 3068 ? about a billion?

Mash Maestro you said you used a starter for the second but it was milder? I have the mix right, between banana and clove, but actually want more of both.

Also excuse my lack of knowledge, but when you say the second beer was more attenuated, what do you mean by that? Does this mean it had more body? Because I normally mash at 67 for my APA's and they have loads of 'depth' to them when you drink them, I think this Hefe is going to feel lighter when drinking.

I should have posted more often, I am enjoying this discussion.

 

[brewtas]

Haha! It was 18C here today. Practically lager brewing weather.

Brewing a good hefe is awesome. The good thing is that it's all about dialling in a process (and ingredients). Your freezer dying screws you a bit this time but you'll get a sense of where to go from here.

Don't worry about pitching rate. Temperature is a better way to manage the yeast. Lower for clove, higher for banana.

More attenuated means it finished with a lower gravity. Personally I think 67C is a bit high, I'd go for 65C, hefeweizens aren't meant to be full bodied.

Glad you've broken your silence. Keep posting! It's always good to talk beer with likeminded people.

 

[Scooby Tha Newbie]

I'm enjoying this thread as well. It will be my start at learning this type (style)of beer.

 

[Kiwifirst]

LOL well i got that part right. My APA's are at 67 but I did this Hefe at 65c. I nailed that pretty well and had it at 65 for the full hour. I think the temp change between 20 and 24 probably gave me a good range of all flavours and hopefully as it chills and carbonates it will develop. I'll definitely come back and report in a few days on the first off pours.

Hi Scooby, it certainly is a more challenging beer style if you have pre-conceived expectations
for me it is usually, as long as it has at least 70% pale malt and at least two american hops beginning with C I can't go wrong
With this.....phew.... work, attention, research etc etc

 

[manticle]

Ferulic acid rest will push clove with the right yeast. Underpitching or warmer ferment should push banana.

I prefer clove although hefe is not my favourite style.

 

[Kiwifirst]

Ferulic acid rest

Great. Something else to research.

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

I think pushing into the 20s for Hefe's is a bit of a miss. There's a natural inclination that higher = more esters. That may be true, but I think for a true, balanced hefe, sub 20 is the way to go. You may have heard of the 30 degree rule (eg: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/58737-thirty-degree-rule/)...pitch and ferment should add up to 30. Some may call it an old wives tale, but it works for me. I think the Jamil show on wheat beers pushes this approach as well.

On advice from a german homebrewer I respect, I tried pitching at 12 and letting naturally ramp up to 18 over a few days....lots of stress through days of lag.
Huge risk of infection, I thought. Dead in the water, I thought. Eventually it hit it and went like the clappers. I then had more stress during bottling, seeing these huge krausen rings in my bottle so bad I posted in the infection thread.

Anyways, the resultant beer took was a 128 point 1st place beer at both the ACTABC and AABC this year, so despite all the stress the technique works. Granted, there was other advice as well. Decoction was suggested. I did not decoct, but did step mash including a ferulic rest.

This was my recipe - split into two batches (one ended up on quince) with a vial in each - no starter:

Recipe: Quince Wheat 2013
Brewer: Mr No Tip
Style: Weizen/Weissbier
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 40.03 l
Post Boil Volume: 33.28 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 28.00 l
Bottling Volume: 27.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.046 SG
Estimated Color: 6.2 EBC
Estimated IBU: 11.8 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 85.7 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
4.00 g Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 1 -
2.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins Water Agent 2 -
2.60 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (3.5 Grain 3 47.2 %
2.30 kg Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) ( Grain 4 41.8 %
0.40 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 5 7.3 %
0.20 kg Carapils (Briess) (3.0 EBC) Grain 6 3.6 %
25.00 g Tettnang [4.50 %] - First Wort 90.0 min Hop 7 11.8 IBUs
2.2 pkg Hefeweizen Ale (White Labs #WLP300) [35. Yeast 8 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 5.50 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash in Heat to 38.0 C over 4 min 38.0 C 0 min
Ferulic Acid Rest Heat to 45.0 C over 2 min 45.0 C 40 min
Protein Rest Heat to 52.0 C over 7 min 52.0 C 20 min
Beta Rest Heat to 63.0 C over 11 min 63.0 C 80 min
Alpha Rest Heat to 71.0 C over 8 min 71.0 C 15 min
Mash Out Heat to 77.0 C over 6 min 77.0 C 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 45.53 l water at 75.6 C
------


Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Kiwifirst]

I hadn't heard of the 30 rule, so that was interesting reading. With this brew I pitched at about 20c and the first 2 days were fermenting at 24c.
So by pitching at much lower than the 'suggested' temp range of the yeast you are effectively under pitching because the yeast will be slower to get started and multiply, as opposed the riot party I created pitching at 20c? DO I have that right.

If I wanted to experiment with a Ferulic rest and I mash in a Esky, could I perhaps do the first mash with say 2L per KG at 45c for say 30mins then add another 1L per KG to bring it up to 65C for a further 30mins?

 

[manticle]

Hot water infusion is one mthod of step mashing and what you suggest will work.

 

[slcmorro]

Get some busty frauleins around, and then it won't matter a shit what the beer tastes like