AG Hefe - suddenly my confidence wanes

[verysupple]

You seem to be happy with the balance but just want more. Owen Lingley from Wyeast basically says that the pitching rate generally determines what esters you get and the temp generally determines how much ester sythesis occurs.

Give it a listen and make your own educated-ish decision about what you want to try next time in terms of pitching rates and ferment temps. to get your desired end-point.

The bit you're probably interested in is about 16:00 in the video.

NB. He seems to be only referring to ester (banana) production. It seems from what I've read that with this yeast the ballance is manipulated by changing the ester production. The phenolics (clove) are either overshadowed by the esters or are allowed to dominate by suppressing the esters.

 

[beerbog]

Try Wy 3068 @ 17 deg. A nice bananery flavour. :icon_drool2:

 

[Mardoo]

Awesome thread and links guys. Thx!

 

[Kiwifirst]

Thanks BeerGod I'll watch that today. I am also definitely going to try the 3068 as well. AS soon as I buy a new brewing fridge.

 

[manticle]

The yeast you mention in the recipe is 3068.

 

[NewtownClown]

Try Wy 3068 @ 17 deg. A nice bananery flavour. :icon_drool2:

Absolutely! I use to screw around with low to mid 20's then heard Jamil in a podcast recommend 17c and have never looked back

 

[Kiwifirst]

The yeast you mention in the recipe is 3068.

Yes, I meant, I want to try 3068 at a lower temp when I get a new fridge.

 

[manticle]

Ok. 17 is definitely my preference for that yeast.

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

I hadn't heard of the 30 rule, so that was interesting reading. With this brew I pitched at about 20c and the first 2 days were fermenting at 24c.
So by pitching at much lower than the 'suggested' temp range of the yeast you are effectively under pitching because the yeast will be slower to get started and multiply, as opposed the riot party I created pitching at 20c? DO I have that right.

If I wanted to experiment with a Ferulic rest and I mash in a Esky, could I perhaps do the first mash with say 2L per KG at 45c for say 30mins then add another 1L per KG to bring it up to 65C for a further 30mins?

I don't profess to fully undestand it, but I think the pitch cold idea is about stressing the yeast...they aren't totally dormant at that temp, just not happy enough to go on an orgy of fermentation.

The mashing you describe is a done thing - infusion mashing. I've only ever 1V brewed (BIAB and BM) so I don't know 3v too well, but how much harder would it be to draw some wort off and heat that (decoction), rather than adding more water?

 

[Kiwifirst]

but how much harder would it be to draw some wort off and heat that (decoction), rather than adding more water?

Yes, i could do that. I would imagine it would be harder as you'd have to run off 'x' amount then heat that to 'y' so when added back to the mash it increased to 'z'.

So lets say I had 15L of water in 5kg of grain sitting at 42c. What is X and Y to get to 65C as Z?

 

[jacknohe]

Well its good to see others on the Hefe trail. I've just recently made two. A bit of a learning curve. Went with a 50% Pils, 50% Pale wheat as my grist. Single infusion only with a mash out.

First brew used yeast 3333 (German Wheat) at 17c. This yeast is actually ok. Its very toned down on that clovey flavour so if thats anyone's preference its pretty good. More close to some of the commercial Hefes I'm finding on tap. I found my efficiency dropped off (I use BIAB) from 75% to 65% due to the amount of wheat used and I ended up with a 3.9% alc beer which was actually ok.

Second brew I accounted for the efficiency loss and then used 3068 at 17c. Yep, bang on. I got a German guy I know to give it the taste test. He travels to Frankfurt often and reckoned it was as good as any you'd get on tap there.

So I'm gonna stick with my approach but see what happens when I lower the IBUs to 11 to see what happens. Next Hefe:

50% Pils, 50% Pale wheat. Mash @ 68c.
OG:1.047, FG: 1.012,
Wai-iti 3.4%AA, 24g @ 50mins (IBU: 11)
(using Wai-iti hops same as Illawarra Brewing Co)
5.0% alc.
WY3068 @ 17c

 

[Kiwifirst]

I have a friend from Cologne coming round tomorrow to try my Kolsch. (nervous about that, telling someone from Cologne you've made Kolsch is some what daunting). Anyway, he also judge my very fresh (read 3 days in the keg) Hefe.

Our recipes were similar, I think mine was 1.051 to 1.014

I just poured a glass of the new stuff and whilst it needs more carbonation it is pretty easy to drink. I find it a little under powered in both banana and clove, its like a mild version of a big Hefe. I dunno, maybe I was just spoilt drinking freshly brewed Hefes in Bavarian country towns.

I am definitely keen to brew more of this beer though. It is a great challenge and I can see the potential to create a wonderful fresh brew.

Thanks for keeping the thread going, it is good to chat with others on making these.

Cheers

 

[Dan Pratt]

I really enjoy a wheat beer and often add wheat to the grist of my APA and IPA's. This year i have made 5 Witbiers and 1 Dunkelwezien and all with great results so Im about to embark into the Hefe and that start today.

My 3333 starter failed so Im going to use the only available wheat yeast I can get today WB06 B) I plan to pitch direct into the wort at 17c( which goes against my current yeast management methods - such as using liquid starters or at least re-hydrating) From what I have read this will create a nice bananna flavour as the yeast is somewhat stressed ( normally bananna comes from correct pitch levels and fermet at 24c ) Only one way to find out.

Here is the recipe;

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size (fermenter): 21.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.045 SG
Estimated Color: 6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 12 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 85.7 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
2.10 kg Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner (4.0 EBC) Grain 1 50.0 %
2.10 kg Weyerman Wheat Pale (GER) (4.0 EBC) Grain 2 50.0 %

22.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [5.10 %] - Boil Hop 3 11.9 IBUs

1.0 pkg Safbrew Wheat (DCL/Fermentis #WB-06) [50 Yeast 4


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 4.20 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Mash In Add 29.00 l of water at 19.9 C 20.0 C 0 min
Alpha Rest Heat to 43.0 C over 20 min 43.0 C 20 min
Saccharification Heat to 66.0 C over 15 min 66.0 C 75 min
Mash Out Heat to 78.0 C over 10 min 78.0 C 30 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 4.17 l water at 75.6 C

Ferement at 17c

 

[Kiwifirst]

which goes against my current yeast management methods

I think this typifies what I enjoyed about making this beer. The unkown. I always have a fair idea of what I am going to get when I brew because I am mostly using a Safale 05, some pale and an american citrus hop. Even when I change beer style with the Kolsch I kind of knew what I was going to get. However, it looks to me that i'll be having lots of fun experimenting with the yeasts and developing a different beer each time.

 

[sav]

I have brewed a lot of hefes and tried a lot of different changes to my recipes to get the perfect balance
I like a lot of banana in my hefe but it shouldn't be cloying.
I have under pitched, over pitched, tried temp changes, protein rest sacc rests multi step mashes.
My best results are by stressing the yeast to get the flavour i am after. I use 3068 and only pitch one smack pac to 42 lts,I find under pitching gives me the profile I love.
I normally mash at 66 and ferment at 19deg with single infusion mash.
I am not saying it is what you should do but it is what works for me.

Happy brewing sav

 

[Kiwifirst]

Thanks Sav, that is interesting as you are using one smack pack to 42 L. Where as I am using one smack pack for 21L and it was at 24c. So no wonder it brewed quickly.
I wonder then, if that is over pitching? I can't for the life of me work out the pitching rates.

I bet if I ran the 1 pack on 21L at 17c it would be a completely different beer. Not that I am unhappy with my first attempt.

 

[JDW81]

but how much harder would it be to draw some wort off and heat that (decoction), rather than adding more water?

Yes, i could do that. I would imagine it would be harder as you'd have to run off 'x' amount then heat that to 'y' so when added back to the mash it increased to 'z'.

So lets say I had 15L of water in 5kg of grain sitting at 42c. What is X and Y to get to 65C as Z?

Not really harder, just more fiddley. If I decoct, which I often do with hefes (and no, I'm not interested in getting into a debate about the merits or otherwise of decoction). I pull off a thick 1/3 of the mash and boil. I then add it back in slowly, stirring constantly, thermometer at the ready until I get to the temp I desire. If I hit my temp before I add all the decoction back in (which is usually the case) I leave the remainder in my pot and use it to form part of the next decoction. Easy as.

JD

 

[Kiwifirst]

to form part of the next decoction.

So you have two rests then? sit at say 20 for x time, pull a third out heat and add back to say 42c then keep the rest until Y time and add the balance to take it to say 65c?

 

[jyo]

The last couple of hefes I have made I have included an addition of melanoidin at just under 2%. It helps to give the decoction flavour without the extra work, which I think my previous hefes were missing. I used to brew with 60/40 wheat/barley, but the last ones with 50/50 have been better.

+1 on the comments for running these yeasts at 17' (including WB06- it makes a good hefe when run at 17') for balance of clove and banana.

 

[JDW81]

to form part of the next decoction.

So you have two rests then? sit at say 20 for x time, pull a third out heat and add back to say 42c then keep the rest until Y time and add the balance to take it to say 65c?

Depends, you can do a single, double or triple. I tend to follow the Hochkurz decoction, but have a read of this page to give you some more information. The graphs are a really good summary and give you an indication of temperature and time.

JD