Aabc 2006 Results

[Weizguy]

Hi Les,

While I feel for you mate I think putting the blame entirely on the AABA is wrong
In fact these "AABC guys" are all representatives from the committees of all the State run competitions, no they are not voted in but ARE the only ones who will hold their hands up to be a part of the AABA.
Why don't you become a delegate for NSW? all you have to do is approach your State committee and I am sure they would be happy for your help.
Why do you assume that just because NSW decided to have this particular catagory the National comp should have it as well.?
Why didn't NSW learn from the previous years mistake that the catagory being discussed was not a part of the AABC and drop the catagory for this years competition to bring their comp in line with the AABC???

The rules for the AABC were very rigorously debated over some months and ALL state officials were aware of them, putting the blame entirely on the AABA is just unfair, after all, it was the State comp that disregarded the AABC catagories in favour of their own.

I am sorry that you were unable to recieve the recognition you deserved by entering the AABC but in all fairness I think you should also be pointing your finger at the State organisers as well.

Cheers
Andrew

Thanks for your heartfelt reply Andrew. I didn't realise that I was allocating blame to anyone. I thought that I was raising questions and awareness of what appears to be a longstanding issue. Now I am ready to start laying blame.

It also appears that, within the AABA, there has been an ongoing and laboured debate on the inclusiveness issue.

It seems to me that if you can buy a beer style commercially in this country, people will be interested in tasting it and probably making it. If it's almost impossible to buy an imported Kolsch, why is it an accepted style? Whereas a American Rye or Berliner weisse also cannot be bought here (well, maybe at Redoak - no affiliation), but recipes are freely available, but the AABC has demonstrated that they do not exist by their summary exclusion from the latest AABC event.
If I want to try a beer style but I can't get hold of a commecial example, I'll brew one... and then if I am pleased enough with the result to consider that it matches the style guidelines for the beer, why can't I enter it in a competition?? ...and then if it does well in that comp and qualifies to go on to the next level of judging by National judges, why does it suddenly not exist???

...and further, if a number of beers from one State seems to be singled out for exclusion, even though the AABC rules (in Section D1 - Qualification) state that "The organisers reserve the right to re-classify non-conforming beers (i.e. in a non-listed style) to a listed AABC style", without reserving the right to exclude entries outright, is that a display of "Natural Justice"?
But wait, there's more: Is it unfair (as mentioned by Stu, above) to brewers who have qualified in their category, to have another entry reclassified and added into your category, thus increasing the number of entries from one State in that category? There appears to be no rule excluding this. And is exclusion of a State winner more fair than inclusion of it as an extra entry into a fully-subscribed category?

Sounds to me like someone is pulling strings and being a (dare I say) pissant to both NSW competitors and the NSW delegates.

Andrew, based on your comment about NSW "learning" from it's "mistake", I'd have to say that you are contributing to the alleged problem, rather than working to resolve it.
Can anyone righteously say that a group of independent, qualified beer judges (albeit from NSW) can make the same "mistake" two years in a row, in selecting an AABC-excluded style as Best of Show?? Surely that smacks of paranoia and conspiracy theory. Of course, NSW will pick these beers, not because they are quality beers, but because they want to upset the AABC, in order to obtain a change to the rules. That's how I answer your question and dare to "assume that just because NSW decided to have this particular catagory the National comp should have it as well".

It seems to me that a bunch of stodgy, bureaucrat-minded stalwarts do not want to move into the future with the rest of Australia's brew community. Is it so hard to get good help in organising the AABA committee (now there's a scary word). I'd also put it to other forum members that it's easy to see in which camp you park your bus, Andrew.

Is it any wonder that NSW have been looking for new blood to help out, as the previous dedicated individuals have been frustrated at every (or so it seems) turn. I have good info that there was an undertaking to update the style guidelines for this year's AABC, yet this was reneged. Are these the sort of people that we want running the show?. Now, at least one NSW rep has quit in disgust and frustration.
I'd put my hand up in a nanosecond if I believed that I could make a difference to the constipated set of rules. Good luck Keith, and may God be on your side. I know that you are good with words and a convincing debater, but I'm afraid that a similar style has been used in the past, to zero effect.

I feel that it's time for a big change, and now that there are already a number of pseudo-National competitions currently running, can the AABA finally get the hint that something is rotten in the state of Denmark (or some other state?). Maybe some of these guys who "put their hand up" should put it down and give someone else a go. Maybe someone younger, but definitely someone who's willing to make a decision and make some changes and take the AABC into the future instead of stagnating. Remember, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
Ask yourself: "Is it about the beer and the brewers, or is it about the politics"?
Why exclude a beer (and there was no argument that it wasn't beer) from a National reckoning of beer, based on your politics of styles? There was leeway within the rules to include all excluded entries.

Now, grow up and play nice with the big boys or go to your bedroom, lest I finally give in and mention "the war".

Oh, by the way Andrew, I'm not sure why you felt the need to call me mate, and I feel for you if you're that lonely.

Seth out

 

[Kai]

I put to it to all right-thinking forumers that a rule could have been passed to allow a State title winning beer to be entered in the AABC; and if not in the correct category (which doesn't yet exist under their rules), at least in the "specialty" styles instead of being fed a tale of "displacing" other people who had justifiably won the right to enter their beer in that category.

An excellent and seemingly simple idea. I like it.

Are these people adults, or petty children? Puerile is a word that comes to miind. Too busy arguing about long-standing disagreements and in-fighting to see the big picture. It's about the brewers, Boys! For without the Amateur Brewers there is no Amateur Brewers Championship.

Harsh, way harsh. They are not petty nor peurile, they are a committee. An as much as I know it is being rubbed in, they are a volunteer committee. That's not a thankless task, but it's certainly one that few people will step up to. I hope you've made a reasonable attempt to contact the committees involved to sort out this debacle.

Let's not buy into any anti-BJCP sentiment here, but consider that the BJCP "styles" are a little more inclusive ,and can be adapted to our local (or National) comp without adopting the whole BJCP judging structure, and (if I may say so) Boy's Club/Amway infrastructure. So why do we have the same argument for two consecutive years, with a sour beer in the NSW State comp?

Unless I am misunderstanding here, it's worth remembering that a BJCP-sanctioned competition does not necessarily include all the BJCP styles and can even encompass non-BJCP style guidelines -- a factor I feel is very important in Australian competition. I don't see that even adapting BJCP structure would solve the problem presented here.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Hi Les,
I have just spent an hour going through all my relevant documents and emails from the AABA and delegates. I wrote a fairly long winded reply to your post showing how the AABA tried to accommodate the entries from NSW that did not have any catagories in the AABC, and then I thought, this is just going to go around and around and around. So I deleted the thread.
It's pointless trying to explain any further as you obviously have your mind set.

It seems to me that a bunch of stodgy, bureaucrat-minded stalwarts do not want to move into the future with the rest of Australia's brew community. Is it so hard to get good help in organising the AABA committee (now there's a scary word). I'd also put it to other forum members that it's easy to see in which camp you park your bus, Andrew.
and

I'd put my hand up in a nanosecond if I believed that I could make a difference to the constipated set of rules. Good luck Keith, and may God be on your side. I know that you are good with words and a convincing debater, but I'm afraid that a similar style has been used in the past, to zero effect.

Thanks for the compliment :blink:. You seem to be quite happy for other people to attempt the changes to the AABC that YOU want, but you aren't prepared to make the effort yourself, if you are REALLY so passionate about the problems with the AABC then get on the committee.

I really don't think there is anymore meaningful comments I can add the this disscussion.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[bigfridge]

Hi Les,
I have just spent an hour going through all my relevant documents and emails from the AABA and delegates.

Hi Andrew,

There have been a number of calls to "blame the organisers of the NSW comp" for causing this problem, however, one important point gets continually overlooked.

NSW actively participated in the discussion in December last year, leading up to the vote to adopt the BJCP guidelines. The actions voted on were:

"1. We use the BJCP descriptors as our standard, instead of formulating our own. (but reserve the right to change this in future, if so decided)
2. The second is we add to it some Australian styles, that are yet to be determined.
3. The third is we try to get the BJCP to adopt and incorporate the Aussie styles we agree on.
4. What we do with the style guidelines, what we include, how we group them, etc, all comes later."

The states then proceeded to organise their competitions on this basis.

In July, this year we were advised that:

"Categories this year will be similar to last year with some minor changes to remove the major points of contention (e.g. removing Trappist, adopting the BJCP style descriptions in most cases). Michael G and myself have been working on this. There's not enough time to do more for this year's competition. Any discussion on categories (which I'm sure there'll be) should be aimed at what should happen for next year's competitions"

So what happened to the 4 step action plan agreed to ? I know that this caused a number of states problems as organisation for their comps was well advanced.

Through all this NSW made it very clear how we saw that things could be improved and offered our approach as an example of how we had overcome some of the perceived problems. I wonder if any of those voting had actually looked at our published sytles and categories.

Throughout all this we thought that we were voting for the adoption of the BJCP style guidelines for qualifying comps, not the restricted set of styles that were rushed out just before this years 'comp season'.

Looking back perhaps we were a little naive to think that such a radical change was possible.

Andrew, this will be my last word on this issue. If you can't see by now that NSW was not trying to deceive its brewers, cheat or get an unfair advantage - perhaps you never will. We did not realise that we were voting for a restrictive set of styles as all the discussion was focused on improving the system for the benefit of brewers.

Good Brewing,
David

AABA representative for NSW (Retired)

 

[AndrewQLD]

Andrew, this will be my last word on this issue. If you can't see by now that NSW was not trying to deceive its brewers, cheat or get an unfair advantage - perhaps you never will. We did not realise that we were voting for a restrictive set of styles as all the discussion was focused on improving the system for the benefit of brewers.

Good Brewing,
David

David,

Nowhere have I ever said or insinuated that NSW ever deceived, cheated or got an unfair advantage and I never will. To be honest I have never even thought that and it surprises me that you would say such a thing.

I fully realise that NSW are doing the best for their brewers and are trying to further the Australian amatuer brewing competition as are we all, and none of my comments have been intended as a personal slight against any of the organisers or competitions. Hopefully this and other discussions will rouse the other AABA delegates into getting a set of styles and catagories in place early enough for all the State comps to adopt and have as their own.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Weizguy]

G'day again.

I wanted to make it clear that I would prefer to see the BJCP styles, not wholly adopted, but adapted, to include Aussie styles to which the BJCP seems oblivious, as well as the inclusivity of other styles.
What if I wanted to make a Gose? Would I have to put it into specialty/other, even though it's a style, rather than a copy of a specific brand or make of beer?

Andrew, I'd like to see that info you were going to post, and I'm sending you a pm. As I mentioned, being part of the solution means that one should not remain part of the problem. I do not want to contribute to the problem. I think I'm intelligent enough to get a handle on the situation, once I have access to relevant info.

Relevant info...that was another point I'd like to make. There seems to be a closed shop mentality here. Is it not reasonable to expect input from the brewing community re the rules they want in their National comp and its governing body. I don't recall any input being sought on this forum, from a group of, what I like to think of as erudite brewers.

I'm not attacking you, Andrew, but I am questioning your attitude. I'd like to see a bit more openness and transparency from the AABA. And, as I mentioned, if some of the "delegates" are in a position where they've done their best, or done all that they're willing to do, it's time to stand down and give someone else a go. I perceive the current situation as infighting and a lot of gamesmanship between delegates who are meant to be working together for the benefit of all. Am happy for clarification and detail if available.

Best of luck next year with the organisation of the Qld comp. Please keep us all informed on this forum and elsewhere.

Seth/Les/the guy with the Berliner weissbier
* edited to add clarifying content (2 words only)

 

[Vlad the Pale Aler]

The recipe book from this comp arrived today, better late than never.
It was worth waiting for, well put together and all the best recipes in the country.
Thanks to all involved.

 

[Barry]

I received the booklet today. A great resource. Thanks to Mark and all involved. :beer:

 

[Ray_Mills]

Hi
Well this is the first I have known about it, hope the IBU's get a copy for all thier work
Cheers
Ray
Oh....just realised it was 2006, bugger and sorry, but the book would be good

 

[Doc]

Received my Recipe Booklet today too.
Had to flick to the results to see what beers I entered into the nationals in 2006.
Looks like a good resource. Definitely some bus reading
A rather professional looking layout too. Great job Mark. Worth the wait.

Beers,
Doc

 

[Guest Lurker]

Yes, well done, must have a good read

 

[Mark H]

FYI, the 2006 booklet was sent to entrants, judges and sponsors of VicBrew 2006 and AABC2006 - "70 beer recipes from 50 of Australia's best amateur brewers".
You can purchase copies from a few Melbourne homebrew shops or on-line from Grain & Grape for $9.95 plus postage. The 2006 booklet isn't in their catalogue yet but they have copies - just ask. See http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/index.php?cPath=1_13&&page=3



Retailers interested in stocking the booklet should contact the editor at
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Cheers, Mark.