A Lager That's Not A Lager?

[Phoenix]

Hey Guys,

On the week-end I purchased my first homebrew kit and it is brewing away nicely . But after doing a bit more research into beers over the last few days I have a bit of a question.

The kit beer that came with the kit is 'Morgans Australian Lager'. However the instructions are recommending it to be kept around the 25* mark and at least between 22* and 30*. But I thought the main difference with Lagers was that they brew at lower temps as it's using bottom feeding yeast which needs the lower temps.

Can someone help me understand what is going on here? Are they just refering the the beer having a 'lager' taste rather than being a true lager? Or is there some other conspiracy going on?

Cheers. :beer:

 

[RobW]

It's more than likely an ale yeast. The kit manufacturers don't want the ferment pooping out on you so they recommend a temperature that's relatively easy to maintain & ensures complete fermentation. Next time, if you can control a lower temperature ferment, think about using SAFLager. Then you're on the slippery slope

 

[T.D.]

The yeast that came with that kit will be an ale yeast. I guess the reason they do that is so new brewers don't need to worry about temperature control and can just brew at ambient temperatures. It will not be a lager - it will be an ale. The "Lager" name is just a gimmick. You can brew any kit as a lager if you use lager yeast, and the yeast is the only thing that determines that.

I would brew the beer at 20-22 though - 30 degrees is WAY too high. 25 is also probably a bit high, but anywhere between 18-25 will probably produce a decent beer.

 

[Phoenix]

Yeah, so I was also thinking it's an Ale yeast. But then why are they labeling it a lager? Do you think it's just a taste thing?

EDIT: TD replied between me starting and finishing this post. So I guess disregard. I guess on what TD says I'll just understand that this is an Ale that they wanted to market as a Lager (seeing that's what most commercial beers are and hence ppl drink).

 

[Bobby]

thats right. it somewhat resembles a lager...

 

[Steve]

Phoenix - WELCOME - They basically think we are a bit half witted and are not capable of thinking of the question you just asked. It will be a psuedo lager. As others have said try brewing it at 18-22.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Trough Lolly]

[snip]
The kit beer that came with the kit is 'Morgans Australian Lager'. However the instructions are recommending it to be kept around the 25* mark and at least between 22* and 30*. But I thought the main difference with Lagers was that they brew at lower temps as it's using bottom feeding yeast which needs the lower temps.
[snip]

G'day Phoenix - good to see another Canberran on the board!

Once you get the hang of brewing, you'll soon toss out the instructions along with the lid of the brewkit - as has already been pointed out, you won't be brewing with a true lager strain of yeast if the instructions tell you to cook the yeast at 20 plus degrees celcius...if it was lager yeast, you'd be making a fusel feast that will treat your brain to a cricket bat hangover the following day!

Get thee to Colin's brewshop in Kambah and get your hands on a couple of sachets of W34/70 dry lager yeast - rehydrate it in 300ml of pre-boiled and cooled water and pitch into a cooled wort that's around 16C and you'll be gobsmacked at the difference a half decent sachet of real lager yeast can do for your kit beer.

Then you'll go onto yeast smack packs, tubes, steeped grains, mashing and eventually eternal damnation!! h34r:

Cheers,
TL

 

[Phoenix]

Gotcha.

As for temp, basically I'm a bit all over the place atm between the recommended (kit) temps. We've suddenly got a pre-summer spell of cool weather down here in Canberra, so I've had the heater on in the laundry (where the ferm is) just so I can get it around the right temps. But I guess seeing it's still my first brew I'll just stick to the instructions for now. But once I get to start drinking the stuff (seems so long away) I look forward to playing around a bit more. Also by then I might look at some more comprehensive ways to control temps - currently reading threads on ferm fridges and ADLO controls.

 

[Phoenix]

G'day Phoenix - good to see another Canberran on the board!

Once you get the hang of brewing, you'll soon toss out the instructions along with the lid of the brewkit - as has already been pointed out, you won't be brewing with a true lager strain of yeast if the instructions tell you to cook the yeast at 20 plus degrees celcius...if it was lager yeast, you'd be making a fusel feast that will treat your brain to a cricket bat hangover the following day!

Get thee to Colin's brewshop in Kambah and get your hands on a couple of sachets of W34/70 dry lager yeast - rehydrate it in 300ml of pre-boiled and cooled water and pitch into a cooled wort that's around 16C and you'll be gobsmacked at the difference a half decent sachet of real lager yeast can do for your kit beer.

Then you'll go onto yeast smack packs, tubes, steeped grains, mashing and eventually eternal damnation!!

Cheers,
TL

[post="94170"][/post]​

Yup, it was the Kambah shop I got the kit from, and the guy there gave me a good speil about homebrew first. Much goodness.

As for getting into the proper yeasts and the like, I look forward to it. Can't wait until I have a few brews under my belt and actually get to drink some of the stuff. Once that happens. I can start playing. Can't wait.

Bring on the damnation! :chug:

 

[Trough Lolly]

No worries - Colin's a good bloke who has plenty of good advice for new brewers. He's also a member of the Canberra brewers club and can get you going if you're interested in joining - the club meets on the first Thursday of each month in the New Griffin Centre. There's loads of experience and excellent brewers / judges / beer geeks to talk to at the meetings.

//Club rant ends!//

Cheers,
TL

 

[Steve]

Pheonix - i would still turn the heater off in the laundry. My fermenters are happily sitting at 20 in my laundry. Good temp for ale yeast. 25 and upwards as per the recommendations on the kit are too high.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Phoenix]

Pheonix - i would still turn the heater off in the laundry. My fermenters are happily sitting at 20 in my laundry. Good temp for ale yeast. 25 and upwards as per the recommendations on the kit are too high.
Cheers
Steve

[post="94187"][/post]​

At the risk of going off topic, I'll ask you what I hope is a quick question. Isn't the required temp determined mainly by the type of yeast used and then by the desired taste (with yeast function being the most important). :unsure:

If that is correct, then if the instructions with the kit (and on the extract can) said the temp range is between 22 and 30, wouldn't this mean that 22 and below is when the yeast will start to go into dormancy and 30 is when it will die? Further, the guide of 25 degrees is then either a 'safe' temp and/or one that they wish to use to determine the taste (be it pretend lager)?

 

[sluggerdog]

Pheonix - i would still turn the heater off in the laundry. My fermenters are happily sitting at 20 in my laundry. Good temp for ale yeast. 25 and upwards as per the recommendations on the kit are too high.
Cheers
Steve

[post="94187"][/post]​

At the risk of going off topic, I'll ask you what I hope is a quick question. Isn't the required temp determined mainly by the type of yeast used and then by the desired taste (with yeast function being the most important). :unsure:

If that is correct, then if the instructions with the kit (and on the extract can) said the temp range is between 22 and 30, wouldn't this mean that 22 and below is when the yeast will start to go into dormancy and 30 is when it will die? Further, the guide of 25 degrees is then either a 'safe' temp and/or one that they wish to use to determine the taste (be it pretend lager)?

[post="94227"][/post]​

Fair question.

When I started brewing around a year ago now I thought the same thing, the can says 22-30 while the brewers on here say 18-20. So I shot an email off to morgans about the kit I was currently doing. They said just what the guys said on here, 18-20 is ideal and they put the higher range on the kits as this is an easy range for newbie's to keep their brews at.

I would not be putting the heater on, I have found using ale yeasts (some - mostly safale) that you can go down to 15C and they still come up trumps.

Infact I have made pesudo lagers with safale fermented at 15-17C and with a side by side tasting I (and a brewing mate) could not tell the differance from the same beer made with a lager yeast.

 

[Phoenix]

hmmm... very interesting... Thanks Sluggerdog.

 

[Brownie]

Safale Yeasts say on the back that their temp range is 15 to 24 Deg C.

Phoenix, good to see another canberran on board.

Cheers
Brownie

 

[T.D.]

I have still had some relatively high FGs using safale at 17-ish. I had one pull up at 1.014 that I was expecting to get to 1.010-1.012. From my experience I wouldn't go too far below 18 for safale. Having said that though, I am not using a controlled fermentation fridge, so even though it said 17, it may have been much lower during the cold winter nights (ie it may not have been a constant temp - I would guyess that fluctuating temps would not be ideal!). Not disputing other people's claims by the way, just reporting what I have found myself. 1.014 is not a terribly high FG anyway! Anyway, I would suggest that if you want to brew at 15, just grab some saflager instead - I have found that it gives quite good results even at highish temps.

 

[Phoenix]

hmmm... as far as temps go I've done a little experimenting here tonight on my current brew.

As suggested, I turned the heater off and saw the temp get somewhere near 20. At this point I noticed that the rate of bubbles through the air lock was drastically reduced. Since then I've been pushing it back up towards 25 and noticed an increase in bubbles.

I've read other posts on this forum and seen people say that don't worry about the bubbles, they don't mean anything. BUT, if we think about the bubbles logically, we can come to a conclusion that they're an indicator of activity. That being, the bubbles are simply CO2 escaping from the ferm. Where does the CO2 come from? It comes for the yeast being ACTIVE and braking down the starches.

Therefore, low bubbles (at early stages in the fermentation) can signal that the temp is too low for the yeast and as such it is falling asleep - going dormant. Obviously though, low bubbles could also mean that there is no fuel (starch) left for the yeast to process, but this is later in the ferment. (Oh yeah, and this is assuming that the lid is closed properly on the ferm.)

Anyway, thinking through all that, it could also explain the case where TD found that his FG was higher than expected. Basically at the end there is a reduced amount of the starch for the yeast to process. Seeing there is less, it takes a bit more effort for the yeast to process it. But if the yeast is semi dormant because it is too cold, then it wont brake down the small remaining amounts of starch.

Anyway, that's my thought path, and as a result I will (for this first brew) continue to use the higher temps. But thanks everyone who offered alternative advice.

I think the thing is, different yeasts (even within the same types - bottom or top fermenters) require different temps. The idea is to find the best temp for that yeast so that it operates at best efficiency. BUT ALSO, if you don't want to brake down too much of the 'fuel' so as to modify the taste, then you may wish your yeast to remain more dormant.

Just some thoughts from a green horn. Could be wrong and off mark, but it currently makes sense to me.

 

[sluggerdog]

Good idea, test things out for yourself.

Next brew though maybe try the same kit at a lower temp and see the differance...

 

[Phoenix]

Next brew though maybe try the same kit at a lower temp and see the differance...

[post="94321"][/post]​

Yeah, I like that idea. That way I can further see what the difference is. I might see if I can do exactly that. Cheers.

 

[peas_and_corn]

I would guyess that fluctuating temps would not be ideal!).

[post="94295"][/post]​

From my limited knowledge of yeast, I learned that having the temperature as constant as possible is the best thing you can do. Yeasts don't like big changes in temperatures, especially if they happen fast. When pitching a yeast starter into a wort that has a big temperature difference the yeast can suffer 'thermal shock', which is bad (I am not 100% on the consequences of thermal shock, maybe someone else can fill in that blank). However, if the temperature of your wort goes up and down quick it can have similar- not identical, but similar- results. I have found that beers that have had less control over the temperature, especially in the first few days, have tasted a bit different, can't quite put my finger on how to describe it (however, this could be due to a range of other reasons).

I now have a fermentation fridge, so that solves that