A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

[chappo1970]

Q? And not trying to be a smarty pants for once.

Why doesn't/haven't anyone tried recirculating the wort HERMS style? I asked the question in Nick Jr thread but no one answered I guess because no one has the experienced or has tried? I'm not after a stir but genuinely interested as I'm working on a little project for BribieG and have had to get up to speed with the BIAB processes so have become genuinely interested in the whole BIAB process.

PM me the answer if you don't want to comment on the open forum.

Cheers

Chappo

 

[katzke]

Q? And not trying to be a smarty pants for once.

Why doesn't/haven't anyone tried recirculating the wort HERMS style? I asked the question in Nick Jr thread but no one answered I guess because no one has the experienced or has tried? I'm not after a stir but genuinely interested as I'm working on a little project for BribieG and have had to get up to speed with the BIAB processes so have become genuinely interested in the whole BIAB process.

Cheers

Chappo

Recirculating HERMS style implies a pump. BIAB is supposed to be simple and require nothing but a big kettle and a bag.

Some people are doing extra steps like a dunk sparge but I don’t think it is worth the effort. The exception may be if the big kettle is not big enough for the grain and all the water and by dunking for some extra wort you can then fill the kettle and boil.

Did I get your question answered?

Welcome to the dark side.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Q? And not trying to be a smarty pants for once.

Why doesn't/haven't anyone tried recirculating the wort HERMS style? I asked the question in Nick Jr thread but no one answered I guess because no one has the experienced or has tried? I'm not after a stir but genuinely interested as I'm working on a little project for BribieG and have had to get up to speed with the BIAB processes so have become genuinely interested in the whole BIAB process.

PM me the answer if you don't want to comment on the open forum.

Cheers

Chappo

No reason you couldn't - with an Urn style BIAB set-up (actually probably with most of them) you could pump out from under a false bottom of some description and feed it back into the top. It would be very similar to the re-circulation system in "brutus" style mash tuns. Direct heat and re-circulation to avoid having to stir.

BUT - why? is the main question. Re-circulation systems are mainly about maintaining temperatures, step mashing and final wort clarity. Both of which you can do already in a BIAB system, because by definition, you have a heatable mashtun..... it being your kettle and all. You might as well stir during your steps... because the BIAB lautering process wrecks any grain bed set-up and therefore any established wort clarity you might have from the re-circulation.

So you could re-circ a BIAB with a little extra gear and effort - but it does kind of defeat some of the key reasons to BIAB in the first place (cheap, simple, few bits of gear) and it doesn't really give you much that you don't have already. Except to save a little stirring. I can see someone doing it though, probably to get serious control and stability in their temperatures.

TB

 

[chappo1970]

No reason you couldn't - with an Urn style BIAB set-up (actually probably with most of them) you could pump out from under a false bottom of some description and feed it back into the top. It would be very similar to the re-circulation system in "brutus" style mash tuns. Direct heat and re-circulation to avoid having to stir.

BUT - why? is the main question. Re-circulation systems are mainly about maintaining temperatures, step mashing and final wort clarity. Both of which you can do already in a BIAB system, because by definition, you have a heatable mashtun..... it being your kettle and all. You might as well stir during your steps... because the BIAB lautering process wrecks any grain bed set-up and therefore any established wort clarity you might have from the re-circulation.

So you could re-circ a BIAB with a little extra gear and effort - but it does kind of defeat some of the key reasons to BIAB in the first place (cheap, simple, few bits of gear) and it doesn't really give you much that you don't have already. Except to save a little stirring. I can see someone doing it though, probably to get serious control and stability in their temperatures.

TB

Thank you TB as always a well explained response.

The reason I am asking (flame suit on h34r: ) is a two fold affair. Firstly I have been seriously thinking about buying a 20-30lt urn and BIABing for experimental beers that will be small in volume no more that say 5lt to 10lts. I want to be able stuff around with grists, ratios, hopping, yeasts, mashing schedules etc tinkering with a beer or style till I am happy with it and then go to Sherman and brew 40-60lts. Wasting 1-3 kgs of grain and 10-30grs of hops and a slant of yeast I can live with $ wise. Plus the clean up time, 1 vessel vs 4, requires much less time meaning I can easily stuff around in the evenings experimenting like a demented Mad Scientist.

Secondly there was that thread this week that Nick Jr posted about making crystal from his otherwise spent grains. Having a fair amount residual sugars still left in the grist had me thinking that maybe a recirculating mash in a BIAB vessel may help lessen that problem but also give some more repeatability and consistancy. Having so much residual sugars left behind would throw my larger scale version out once I'm back brewing on Sherman. As I already have a march pump, HE and other gear it seemed sensible to me at least I use what I already have and see if I can more closely replicate what I will be doing but on a larger scale obviously. No use working up a hopping schedule only to find that the utilisation is out of whack because I am extracting more sugars from the bigger system.

Anyways appreciate your thoughts

Chappo

(why do I feel a huge ribbing coming on? :blink: )

 

[Bribie G]

TB, I believe, does expermental BIAB brews prior to doing them on a 3V system. Also if you are using a smaller setup then sparge in a bucket will be easy to do and results in far less sugars remaining in the spent grain. Of course you will be picking Rde's brains on your brewday, that's what he does.

Hmm brains, welcome to the zombie darkside B)

 

[crundle]

Can see where you are coming from Chappo, for your situation at least.

The low tech equivalent for BIAB is dunking the bag like a tea bag. Perhaps the lid of the urn could have a hole in it and a paint stirrer could be used in it to plunge up and down to help agitate the wort?

Something moving by itself on the brew rig would surely appeal to your love of automation

Crundle

 

[chappo1970]

Sherman currently pulls between 85% and 90% efficency (well over the last 3 brews anyway), now I know the arguements about this subject and have a handle on most of the the ins and outs of calculating efficency and don't want to start yet another wasted debate ok, what I am more concerned with is having the "mini" system more or less replicating the sugar extraction of the bigger system. I can appreciate that they are two different styled brewing processes but if I can replicate results when scaling up then it would be all worth while. Conversly if I can't then I am just wasting my time, effort and money. I'm not after a definitive "yes" just a "it's possible". Otherwise I'll buy another 2 x 20lt pots (MLT and Boiler) and scale the system replication that way but still have the issue of spending 1hr after the brew cleaning 4 vessels.

TB, I believe, does expermental BIAB brews prior to doing them on a 3V system. Also if you are using a smaller setup then sparge in a bucket will be easy to do and results in far less sugars remaining in the spent grain. Of course you will be picking Rde's brains on your brewday, that's what he does.

Hmm brains, welcome to the zombie darkside B)

Yes Bribie, I fully planned to be picking Rde's for his thoughts and comments. You know what they say there is never a free lunch .

Can see where you are coming from Chappo, for your situation at least.

The low tech equivalent for BIAB is dunking the bag like a tea bag. Perhaps the lid of the urn could have a hole in it and a paint stirrer could be used in it to plunge up and down to help agitate the wort?

Something moving by itself on the brew rig would surely appeal to your love of automation

Crundle

Hmmm interesting? What about one of these?

 

[hairyson]

Anyway, please let me know, here or via PM, if the above spreadsheet is helpful or confusing. Do you think that you, as an experienced BIABer, could easily help a new guy into understanding it?

Spot,
Pat

Pat,
We used the setup sheet last night for a brew in our straight-sided 98 litre Robinox pot (500mm diameter). The sheet's great, though we adjusted down the volume lost to kettle+trub (post-boil) to 2 litres to better reflect our setup, and volume lost to grist about 0.5 litres/kg because we squeeze a bit.

Additionally the pickup and hop screen in the bottom of our kettle, plus temperature probe, mean that we don't have a fully linear kettle volume-to-depth curve, but it's close enough to not worry about.

Nice work!
ben

 

[crundle]

You know when you turn on the Sherminator it will become self aware and seek to destroy you!

Judgment Day indeed! :lol:

Crundle

 

[katzke]

Secondly there was that thread this week that Nick Jr posted about making crystal from his otherwise spent grains. Having a fair amount residual sugars still left in the grist had me thinking that maybe a recirculating mash in a BIAB vessel may help lessen that problem but also give some more repeatability and consistancy. Having so much residual sugars left behind would throw my larger scale version out once I'm back brewing on Sherman. As I already have a march pump, HE and other gear it seemed sensible to me at least I use what I already have and see if I can more closely replicate what I will be doing but on a larger scale obviously. No use working up a hopping schedule only to find that the utilisation is out of whack because I am extracting more sugars from the bigger system.

Anyways appreciate your thoughts

Chappo

(why do I feel a huge ribbing coming on? :blink: )

I think you may be so set on the comparison of brewing methods that you are forgetting some basic brewing.

All recipes are developed for a particular system. If I tell you to brew with so much grain and hops and never tell you what gravity I am at or how much final beer I get you will have a time getting the same results.

If you understand your test system and your full size system it will make little difference in how you work up or down the recipe. Each will be unique.

I am interested in only a few things. Gravity into the fermentor is the big one. Boil volume is important for IBU calculations. Final gravity is important for replicating a brew. There are others as well.

If I know the percentages of the grain bill, the hop schedule, the IBUs, color, original gravity into the fermentor, and final gravity I have a real good chance of replicating one of your brews. You notice how much beer you made is not listed. Even mash temperature is not listed. I think water chemistry is a bit more important because I may bump up the sulfates for bitterness while you may bump up the chloride for malt flavor.

A good test would be to work backward and brew one of your large proven recipes with a mini BIAB just to teach yourself what you need to do to get the same recipe with BIAB. It is an easy way to brew but it can take a bit to get predictable volumes and the hopping is what would be most effected. Once you get it figured out scaling up or down should be a piece of cake.

 

[chappo1970]

I think you may be so set on the comparison of brewing methods that you are forgetting some basic brewing.

All recipes are developed for a particular system. If I tell you to brew with so much grain and hops and never tell you what gravity I am at or how much final beer I get you will have a time getting the same results.

If you understand your test system and your full size system it will make little difference in how you work up or down the recipe. Each will be unique.

I am interested in only a few things. Gravity into the fermentor is the big one. Boil volume is important for IBU calculations. Final gravity is important for replicating a brew. There are others as well.

If I know the percentages of the grain bill, the hop schedule, the IBUs, color, original gravity into the fermentor, and final gravity I have a real good chance of replicating one of your brews. You notice how much beer you made is not listed. Even mash temperature is not listed. I think water chemistry is a bit more important because I may bump up the sulfates for bitterness while you may bump up the chloride for malt flavor.

A good test would be to work backward and brew one of your large proven recipes with a mini BIAB just to teach yourself what you need to do to get the same recipe with BIAB. It is an easy way to brew but it can take a bit to get predictable volumes and the hopping is what would be most effected. Once you get it figured out scaling up or down should be a piece of cake.

Agreed K no arguements here, I was merely trying to avoid all the faffing around with calculations, percentages and scaling etc between systems. Yes I think the BIAB method works well in that regard and a pinch more here or there ain't going to make a cracker of difference to the results really. I'm a homebrewer not a brewery. It's just my anal-retentive nature that clouds the noodle thinking dept at times.

Sure there will always be stuff ups, lazy yeasts, varying hop AA's and I accept that as a part of home brewing.

The objective of the mini-micro brewery is for experimentation only. For example if I want to backward engineer a house beer (as you suggested), say my Aussie Lager recipe, where I'm sipping a pint wondering if I upped the Rice by say 1% would that be my illusive nirvana? So rather than waiting for a brew day, full scale, I can quickly mill the grains mash the fecker, boil it and start fermenting it all that night. 10 days later I have my answer yes or no. Purely an example but that's what I want to be able to do in a predictable manor going either up in volume or down in volume.

I feel BIAB is the answer as it's cheap and easy.

I will still try to experiment with a HERMS-esq sparging method for the grist though? Purely to see if it makes a cracker of difference to sugar extraction for the BIAB process.

Cheers

Chappo (shivers running up my spine... Why are Bribie and PP rubbing their hands like that?)

PS Thank Butters for your guidence as well mate! :icon_cheers:

 

[reviled]

Agreed K no arguements here, I was merely trying to avoid all the faffing around with calculations, percentages and scaling etc between systems. Yes I think the BIAB method works well in that regard and a pinch more here or there ain't going to make a cracker of difference to the results really. I'm a homebrewer not a brewery. It's just my anal-retentive nature that clouds the noodle thinking dept at times.

Sure there will always be stuff ups, lazy yeasts, varying hop AA's and I accept that as a part of home brewing.

The objective of the mini-micro brewery is for experimentation only. For example if I want to backward engineer a house beer (as you suggested), say my Aussie Lager recipe, where I'm sipping a pint wondering if I upped the Rice by say 1% would that be my illusive nirvana? So rather than waiting for a brew day, full scale, I can quickly mill the grains mash the fecker, boil it and start fermenting it all that night. 10 days later I have my answer yes or no. Purely an example but that's what I want to be able to do in a predictable manor going either up in volume or down in volume.

I feel BIAB is the answer as it's cheap and easy.

I will still try to experiment with a HERMS-esq sparging method for the grist though? Purely to see if it makes a cracker of difference to sugar extraction for the BIAB process.

Cheers

Chappo (shivers running up my spine... Why are Bribie and PP rubbing their hands like that?)

PS Thank Butters for your guidence as well mate! :icon_cheers:

Good man! Hurry up and jump ship allready :beer:

 

[PistolPatch]

Pat,
We used the setup sheet last night for a brew in our straight-sided 98 litre Robinox pot (500mm diameter). The sheet's great, though we adjusted down the volume lost to kettle+trub (post-boil) to 2 litres to better reflect our setup, and volume lost to grist about 0.5 litres/kg because we squeeze a bit.

Additionally the pickup and hop screen in the bottom of our kettle, plus temperature probe, mean that we don't have a fully linear kettle volume-to-depth curve, but it's close enough to not worry about.

Nice work!
ben

Thanks a heap for posting your feedback Ben. Great to hear it was easy to adjust for your set-up.

Man, that is a big pot! If you get time, please post us some pics.

Cheers Ben,
Pat

 

[PistolPatch]

Good man! Hurry up and jump ship allready :beer:

He wants to. I can see it now...

For Sale, "One Sherman - Selling at cost - $7,450"

 

[Scruffy]

Isn't there a cockney rhyming term 'Sherman Tank'?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Chappo - I sort of answered one of your questions in my response to DrK in Nick DJR's thread.

If you look at a "normal" system getting say 75% efficiency and a BIAB system getting 75% efficiency - the difference is that in the normal system, the sugars that dont make it from the mash into the kettle, are split between the liquid held in the spent grains and any liquid in dead space, unused low gravity run-off etc etc. But in BIAB... there are no dead spaces or waste liquid, so all the sugars that dont make it into the mash tun... as trapped in the spent grain. So thats why it "seems" that BIAB is leaving behind more sugars - it isn't really, its just leaving them all in the one place.

Whats the upshot for your purposes?? Nothing really - what makes it to the kettle in either case is exactly the same. And thats what you care about.

What you need to do to make a small BIAB system into a reliable pilot for the Sherm... is to get reasonably compatible efficiency from both systems. So you can compare apples with apples. You may struggle a little ... BIAB is a hell of a lot more efficient than you might expect ... but getting 85-90% efficiency (talking measured in the kettle here) is gonna be pushing it. It not out of the question - but its certainly at the upper end of the BIAB spectrum.

If you were doing "stock" no-sparge BAIB, I would say that you were asking too much. You might get up into the 80% range for beers with a smallish grain bill, but that would be it. However - because you have all the attendant gear from your other brewing... you can do the sparge thing. I personally think a "Dunk Sparge" as pioneered by Spillsmostofit and currently used by notables such as Bribie; is the easiest and most effective method. Just reserve an amount of strike water to "dunk" your bag into as a sparge step. Bag out of main mash - drain - dunk into sparge water - stir and pull bag again. Essentially it is batch sparging in a bag. Naturally the more sparge water you use - the better efficiency you will get.

I suspect that given you would have no trouble heating up an amount of sparge water that could give you virtually equal amounts in either vessel - regular efficiencies on the order of 85% would be eminently achievable for you.

You might well notice a marginal difference in the fermentability of the beers you make with BIAB to those you make on your main system - my BIAB beers are usually a little drier. A difference of about 1 degree in sach rest temperatures at most. So if I do pilot BIAB batches, I know to compensate in my full sized brews.

You should be able to make a small scale BIAB system jump through hoops - you have all the gear associated with a full recirculating system. So all the stuff that BIAB brewers think they might try one day... you can have a no risk shot at. I see no reason why it wouldn't be a perfect way to meet your pilot brewery needs

TB

 

[chappo1970]

Thanks TB again for all your information and help. Well I am convinced to head down the BIAB route (for experimental purposes only) as it seems a logical solution to my needs. I will of course be asking more questions as I adjust my 3V thought patterns to BIAB. I am genuinely interested in this brewing technique and probably will stuff around with March pumps and recirculating sparging to the horror of some I am sure.

For those wondering why the sudden interest in BIAB? Well as a select few know I have been making a purpose built BIAB pilot brew rig for BribieG. It's something I have been wanting to do for him for a while now. Those who know Michael will understand as he is just a great bloke, who inspite his own personal problems and challenges puts alot back into the brewing community and asks very little in return. Michael is always the first to shove one of his beers in my hand at every BABB's meeting and I always enjoy talking beery topics with him whenever I can. He maybe an evil genius and a heretic but he has a heart of gold.

Anyway here are some terrible night time pictures of the the build so far:

This is the bare frame



This is the mock up with the gantry for ligting the bag


Showing the gantry and the hoist boggie


The hoist boggie close up


Cheers

Chappo

 

[PistolPatch]

I don't think you have read the BIAB guide properly Chappo. That's Brewing In A Boat

My goodness! That gantry looks like it would handle Carlton's grain bill for a day. Donya!

 

[crundle]

Looking good Chappo!

I would say to have a crack at a simple BIAB brewday to see what is involved, perhaps trying just squeezing the bag for one batch, then sparging for another to compare results both for efficiency and final results.

The good thing about BIAB is that it is capable of so many different iterations that a wide variety of brewing setups can be used to gain the same result with some adjustments in techniques.

Looking forward to seeing the results of your gantry setup in action and how it might make a brewday even simpler for those of us who have taken to the dark side.

And I second your comments about Bribie, he has been a fantastic help to me in getting my brewing technique tweaked to the point that I am now able to take a recipe and be able to adjust it to suit my system to get the desired results, offering helpful advice along the way.

Crundle

 

[chappo1970]

Thanks PP and Crundle!

I guess I should explain the rig. Oh and BTW Bribie did have input into it's design so I can't take all the credit .

Simply the top crank has the hoisting gantry centred to the urn position so that the bag can be hoisted and once drained moved to the other side of the rig so that either a dunk spage or a bucket sparge can be done. The gantry it's self is just a piece of 30x30x1.6 RHS with a 800mm slot 10mm wide to accommodate the spigot for the boggies. The internal boggies are cavity sliding door boggies rated to 35kgs each so they should be well able to handle the intended application. The boggies car has a dual pullet set up as does the hook so in theory the weight to be lifted should be quartered. Therefore 10kg for example becomes 2.5kg. The boggie car will also have a cam lock (yacht style) so that you can one handedly lock off the hoist rope there will also be a lynch pin to stop the boggie moving L/R unexpectedly. The gantry being centred in both directions should also prevent it from toppling over by either the weight of the swinging bag and or the operator pulling too hard on the hoisting rope. Used the 1/3 rule for weight distribution.

Where you see the bracing knee to the right will be the shelf for the urn to sit on. The urn will sit about approx 600mm from the ground allowing a good drop distance for dropping into a fermenter/cube/plate chiller etc. The right side will remain open to the ground for the sparge vessel etc. The whole frame will be on castors for easy manuevouring around the brewery. From memory the entire over dimension for the rig are 500mm wide x 1000mm long x 1900mm high so it could easily be placed on someones balcony as well. Also being only 1900mm high and 500mm wide it will easily fit thru a common door opening which are 2040 high x 720mm wide.

Obviously there will be tweaks to be made as Bribie uses it and makes comment so I hope a final design could be done later this year.

Chap Chap