A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

[troopa]

Thanks Pete
I was curious about the times and process of that
Can you say add the grain before the 43 and keep bringing the temp up till you hit it and then rest?
or is that detrimental?

Tom

 

[RdeVjun]

Whoa, thank you- now I'm blushing! Seriously! Those postal tubes are mighty handy, fit a Coopers PET quite cosily. :beer:
I had my doubts though initially and thought I'd be stuck doing smaller batches with just this kit but it gets me across the line along side all you big boys. A few others (BjornJ, TroyDack- sorry to name- drop!) are reporting similar successes too.

I occasionally use whirlfloc, but of late I've usually forgotten about it! Doesn't seem to matter much though, gelatine gets a heap of flocculation and deposition happening wherever its used. I'm not all that fussy either- I'll drink just about anything while for my main style (a TTL-esque ESB/SB) it is not all that significant anyway, but nevertheless pleasing when it drops bright.

Brewer Pete, do you add the extra few litres of wort gained through the funnel all in one go, or dribble it in to keep the boil happening? If the former, do you notice much scum reforming as it comes back up to the boil? BTW, thanks for the step info.

 

[pdilley]

Troopa in my case i'm way too hot until I add cold water so its bad for me to add the bag in until I'm dialed in temperature wise. Its generally been the practice to set your beginning mash temp before dough in.

RdeVjun I am a no skim brewer so all that break just stays in and gets a free ride through the no-chill cube and fermenter. And in the trub which was harvested and repitched with no issues.

I have done both slow dribbles and one big dump. Amarillo Ale got the one big dump only because I was rushed for time and didnt get my bag drained as early from being split between multiple projects. Disrupted the boil but it started again and no issues in the finished beer.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete

 

[RdeVjun]

RdeVjun I am a no skim brewer so all that break just stays in and gets a free ride through the no-chill cube and fermenter. And in the trub which was harvested and repitched with no issues.

I have done both slow dribbles and one big dump. Amarillo Ale got the one big dump only because I was rushed for time and didnt get my bag drained as early from being split between multiple projects. Disrupted the boil but it started again and no issues in the finished beer.

No sweat Pete, I'm not bothered either way really, but now that I've heard that your methodology is similar to my own, I am curious. Like I say though, I'm not convinced if skimming and clarity are linked in any way, the latter matters not for my stock ale. Perhaps its just happy coincidence- there are multitude other factors at play anyway, one of which I'm sure is my random application of whirlfloc...
Thanks again though, always appreciate your insights.

 

[Hashie]

Thanks for the replies Bribie and RV. I'll give it a go next brew day, hopefully Tuesday. I've got plenty of spare nappy style buckets hanging around.
Will let you know if there's an appreciable difference in efficiency.

 

[troopa]

Its generally been the practice to set your beginning mash temp before dough in.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete

Is there a reason for this or is it just one of those things that has followed on from the days of mash tun brewing ?

Understanding burning bags and all that. Ive rectified it with a solid 3mm perforated ss mesh about 35mm above my exposed element that i have i can now ramp my temp up with the bag immersed in the pot

Im not sure if im making sense but im just trying to think outside the box a little thats all and im not sure if its been covered before

Certainly not in the last 6 months

Tom

 

[Thirsty Boy]

It's nothing to do with BIAB, or with bag burning - its to do with basic mashing theory. You set your dough in temp... because you have a reason for doughing in at a given temp. If you dough in low and try to raise the temp, you are bringing the mash up through all the intervening temps on the way... and stuff is happening. BP doesn't mash in at 43 just because it seems like a good idea - its a ferulic acid rest... which promotes the production of (surprise) ferulic acid which is a precursor to 4VG or the clove flavour you get in a hefeweisen. It also happens to be a good temperature range for Beta-glucanase activity. And it necessitates BP raising his mash through almost the entire range of effective protein rest temperatures on teh way to his first sachrification rest at 62 (which is probably what is making him notice a clarity difference)

Temperature rests are for a purpose. Setting a specific dough in temperature - is because you want to achieve something at that dough in temperature. For most BIAB mashes - its going to be your target sachrification temperature. A temp chosen to give you the balance you want between fermetable and unfermanteable sugars. Doughing in at lower than normal sach rest temperatures - is going to potentially affect your head, clarity, mouthfeel, flavour balance, wort viscosity and a few other things too. Not necessarily badly... but affect it it very well might.

Now, I see nothing wrong with the "reason" for a lower dough in temp being "thats what comes out of my hot tap" - but understanding a little about whats likely to happen at that temperature, will help you get your brew right with a bit less trial and error. Certainly your beer will turn out differently than it would if you doughed in at a mid 60s sach rest temperature - maybe better, maybe worse, maybe either of those two things on different beers - but different it will most likely be.

TB

 

[PistolPatch]

I'm going to post up a hopefully helpful spreadsheet in the next post but before I do, can I first apologise for dropping the ball with quite a few people...

Before I left for Sydney, there were several BIAB-related threads I was involved in and was meant to reply to but I still haven't and I can't see myself getting time to.

Since then, there has also been a heap of stuff come up that I would love to comment on but once again have lacked the time.

We have had BribieG write a great guide on BIAB urn brewing (which I want to read thoroughly) and I have not even said, "Good on ya!," let alone asked him if I can copy it to BIABrewer.info.

There have been a heap of people do well or very well in competitions that I would also love to say how great it is to read their posts let alone the new threads of people doing their first BIAB.

And then you have someone like Brewer Pete post how he dumps his bag in a funnel to drain. How clever and simple is that?

There is lots more stuff to comment on and I truly hate not having the time to acknowledge them.

It is long past the stage where I have a choice to both be active here and write up new BIAB guides etc. I have been failing at both. So maybe I better just say that until I have written some new guides etc for here and BIABrewer.info, I will only be able to read here with pleasure rather than write.

What I am trying to say is that I will still answer emails and PMs thoroughly but am going to take a back seat on the forum side of things. (This doesn't mean I won't post up any corrections to bad advice though .)

Thanks and my apologies,
PP

 

[PistolPatch]

This is a draft of a spreadsheet I want to include in the BIAB FAQs. (This is a sub-topic of this thread I can be active on so you can expect a reply )

View attachment BIAB_Equipment_Set_Up_Volumes.xls

Whoops! Meant to write how to use the spreadsheet but forgot! Just change the red figures. Does that make sense?

 

[pdilley]

Thanks PP and Thirsty.

For the beginner, to simplify it for uptake into the brain, there will be two basic mashing techniques. The Single Mash Temperature and the Step Mash. The Single is well, simple, and so most likely it is in the BIAB guide but understand that it is a compromised temperature for all the mash enzymes.

Multi-Step and rest points let you favour more enzyme groups.

No matter what your understanding both lead to the same end result which is converting starch in the grain into sugars.

George Fix had a multi-rest schedule that became very popular with the home brewer:
40C + 30 min rest
60C + 30 min rest
70C + 30 min rest


Because BIAB guide promotes ?66C? You skip the liquefaction rest at 40C and instead use a temperature that makes for a dextrinous beer which produced a dry, light bodied beer with slightly more alcohol content for a given grain bill weight.

For a Multi-Stepper who wants to make lagers or finds they are getting way too much Malt (my hand is not up ) in their resulting wort for their own personal tastes then George Fix recommended:
50C + 30 min rest
60C + 30 min rest
70C + 30 min rest

You can play with the times as well. If you want to go very dry and light bodied in your final beer than you can decrease the amount of time you rest at 60C and increase the time you rest at 70C.

I have the dead tree version of Palmers book but there is a small graphic of mash temperature ranges and nothing really shows up as happening before the 35C to 45C range which is your initial liquefaction range where as mentioned above the Beta Glucanase enzyme and the general starch "De-branching Enzymes" are happening.

If its too much to take in for now just go with the first basic 3 temperature mash schedule starting at 40C above and you'll do a lot better with your Ales. As time goes on you can study each one in more detail and then see if you are interested in that temperature/enzyme range for the style you are wanting to make.

Would be nice to have the multi-step in the guide just to mention what to do after your first few brews where you stayed single temp only to help you get used to the whole process before worrying about temperature control. -- Then again I have not read the guide in a bit now and not sure what the latest revision(s) added if any.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete

 

[troopa]

ThirstyBoy and BrewerPete Thanks so much for posting that information

Im not even gonna say i have a basic knowledge of mash temp rests except that i knew i had to do it around the 65 mark (But i think you guys guessed that)
What i did think though is that raising the temp up through the high 50s low 60s to 65ish after lowering the bag in wouldnt of made much or any difference as i wasnt resting at those ranges

Funny though cause that certainly isnt easier then just reaching dough in temp and dropping the bag in. Because you have to sit there and stir the pot continuously giving your arm a bloody good work out


Tom
Trying to make BIAB more complicated

 

[pdilley]

Oh let me add I also don't stir the grain.

I am a Tea-Tottler BIAB brewer.

My high tech "jute twine" setup lets me suspend the BIAB bag like a giant teabag and I gently dunk up and down with just my pinched fingers like a tea bag with all the weight and issues of stirring not there.

Works bloody great, even with wheats and flours added to the bag. So in my case it really is almost get to temp and dropping the bag in. All I do is the dunking teabag and flame adjustment. Usually I'll camp out in the kitchen or nearby sometimes with a book to read or just browsing AHB on the iPhone

Does require some more study though on a few simple farmers knots

EDIT: Jute Twine Tea-Tottler method of BIAB also means I have a square 1.5m by 1.5m piece of voile cloth. No sewing or handles or anything. Just me' cloth and me' twine.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete

 

[LLoyd]

This is a draft of a spreadsheet I want to include in the BIAB FAQs. (This is a sub-topic of this thread I can be active on so you can expect a reply )

View attachment 30477

Whoops! Meant to write how to use the spreadsheet but forgot! Just change the red figures. Does that make sense?

5 litre trub buffer works for me Patch, but is this actually a percentage figure?

Lloydie

 

[troopa]

Hey PP thanks for the file mate.. Ill be using that on my next brew just to see how accurate it is to dial into my 60l aluminum pot over the next few brews

Certainly a cleaner setup then the crude one i created

Tom

 

[Thirsty Boy]

This is a draft of a spreadsheet I want to include in the BIAB FAQs. (This is a sub-topic of this thread I can be active on so you can expect a reply )

View attachment 30477

Whoops! Meant to write how to use the spreadsheet but forgot! Just change the red figures. Does that make sense?

PP - a handy little tool if ever I saw one. Well done.

An improvement, or addition really, that I might suggest is a "Total Mash Volume" figure. To help people work out if they will be able to fit their desired brew into a particular sized kettle.

Its easy to work out - Grain takes up about 0.66L for every kg. So weight of grain x 0.66 + total water needed = total mash volume.

Are we free to spread this tool around the place?? (with credits of course) or is it something you would prefer to keep on AHB or BIABrewer.info?

 

[WarmBeer]

I'd just IM'ed a suggestion to PistolPatch, as the "Fill Your Kettle to..." (Cell B18) can be calculated based on the known diameter of the pot (assuming straight sided).

Just replace the calculation in B18 with the following:

=B16*1000/(PI()*((B10/2)^2))​

Note, this doesn't take into account the expansion of water as it is heated, so the height is correct at ambient temperatures.

 

[Scruffy]

You can play with the times as well. If you want to go very dry and light bodied in your final beer than you can decrease the amount of time you rest at 60C and increase the time you rest at 70C.

Hi Pete,

In my understanding, in single or multi-step mashes, the bulk of the starch to sugars process is accomplished by the alpha and beta amalyse enzymes, both of which are active to some degree in the normal 64-70C conversion step range. Mashing at lower temperatures (approx 63-66C) will activate more beta amalyse, resulting in more maltose conversion. Maltose is the primary sugar preferred by yeast, so a lower mash temperature results in a larger percentage of sugars being fermented, resulting in a clean beer finish with higher attenuation, slightly higher alcohol content and less body overall. It takes a bit longer generally, for beta amalyse to do its work, so a longer conversion step at low temperature is needed.

Mashing at the higher end of the range (approx 66-70C) activates alpha amalyse, resulting in not only maltose but other unfermentable sugars (by beer yeast anyway!). Less of the sugars will ferment, leaving lower yeast attenuation and additional body in the finished beer. Alpha amalyse completes its work more quickly than beta, so a slightly shorter step time could be considered.

The other technique mentioned is the dough-in rest or protein rest. At 37-44, maybe up to55C, the dough in allows the grains to soak and saturate as well as allowing the key various lower temperature enzymes to begin chopping up longer chains of molecules. It lowers the PH slightly, and might improve the mash efficiency by a few percent. I've played with 10-15 minute-ish dough in at a 55C trying for an improved clarity, and several cavalier BIAB brews in am not really noticing any difference (that's my crappy science though!). I tried a long rest on a house bitter with wheat, and got no frothy head!!

An end of mash 'mash out' of 75+C can be beneficial too, but for most Keep It Simple BIAB brews, a single mash temp of 67C is ideal - if you are using enzyme-rich malt (and most of the stuff I buy off Ross has been optimised for brewers by scientists rather than dragged out of the ground by medieval farmers) you may end up producing wort that is more fermentable than you really want, resulting in a beer that has a 'thin' character - I remember reading that Bud Light is mashed at about 63C (for about 3 hours...!)

Like I said, I think for most BIAB beginners, 67C is a good starting place... having said that - the difference in taste from mega-swill will probably blow them away!

Disclaimer: I understand I'm only typing on the internet, and expect to be pulled up on everything I've offered here - but it's what I've experienced, so NAAAAAAAAAAH!

 

[Bribie G]

Scruffy, wandering a bit off topic here but I often hear that BIAB produces more dextrinous wort than 3V brewing (Ross has mentioned this as well) due to the thinner mash so the enzymes tend to 'miss' each other more like ships passing in the night. So to take Palmer's analogy you get the tree branches and stems cut up ok but then it's not so efficient at trimming up the little twigs. However PP or TB may be able to clarify this? I know there was some discussion about this on the "BIAB comp successes" thread as MaxT was saying this is the reason (in his opinion of course) you can't make a good light beer with BIAB.

Edit: I've downloaded the spreadsheet and will have a good explore when I get back from ALDI this morning, looks the goods :icon_cheers:

 

[Scruffy]

Hi Bribo (I think that's the vernacular?!),

'zactly - ...as I said, i've not really noticed much difference mashing within the 'traditional' low/high ranges (there are also MANY and various reasons, rather than just temperature). When I started BIAB (I was more traditional in the UK), I 'mashed' Thomas Fawcett Maris Otter (only) at 66C for 90 mins aiming for an OG of 1050. I boiled with Goldings only (cause I knew that from GB). Fermented with equiv of a Wyeast 1318, it finished slightly higher than i was used to (1015 - I didn't fiddle any further, in the cause of creating a control, of sorts). So I guessed mash the next lower, 63 for 60, 67 for 30. Not really much difference, for me (1011 - still finished higher than the UK mash - but I figured I'd run with this as it's different water, technique, equipment, ambient temp, the distance the grain has travelled, mash thickness, yeast, hops, sun spots etc) - I don't brew commercially, so a couple of points FG isn't going to bankrupt me... I also found since, anything like a crystal or caramel/chocolate malt is/are much more pronounced - again, traditionally, steeping favours a thinner ratios or concentrations of starch...

My conclusion is, I reckon I need more BIAB Kill Stickers on my Pot.


Hey, BIAB Kill Marking Stickers!! '...Davo, what's that burning plastic smell?'

 

[PistolPatch]

Scruffy, wandering a bit off topic here but I often hear that BIAB produces more dextrinous wort than 3V brewing (Ross has mentioned this as well) due to the thinner mash so the enzymes tend to 'miss' each other more like ships passing in the night. So to take Palmer's analogy you get the tree branches and stems cut up ok but then it's not so efficient at trimming up the little twigs. However PP or TB may be able to clarify this? I know there was some discussion about this on the "BIAB comp successes" thread as MaxT was saying this is the reason (in his opinion of course) you can't make a good light beer with BIAB.

Edit: I've downloaded the spreadsheet and will have a good explore when I get back from ALDI this morning, looks the goods :icon_cheers:

Thanks very much for the questions and suggestions for the spreadsheet. I'll reply properly to those after work.

Just quickly though on the dextrinous question above, have a look at this page.

Of particular interest is the section on mash thickness which says...

The results for mash thickness were somewhat surprising. Contrary to common believe no attenuation difference was seen between a thick mash (2.57 l/kg or 1.21 qt/lb) and a thin mash (5 l/kg or 2.37 qt/lb). Home brewing literature suggests that thin mashes lead to more fermentable worts, but technical brewing literature suggests that the mash concentration doesn't have much effect in well modified malts [Narziss, 2005]. Briggs cites data that doesn't show a change in fermentability when the mash thickness is changed [Briggs, 2004]. This was confirmed by these eperiments where all the data points were on the same curve that had already been established in the temperature experiment.

Back to you later on the spreadsheet and thanks,
Pat