A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Thanks very much for the questions and suggestions for the spreadsheet. I'll reply properly to those after work.

Just quickly though on the dextrinous question above, have a look at this page.

Of particular interest is the section on mash thickness which says...

The results for mash thickness were somewhat surprising. Contrary to common believe no attenuation difference was seen between a thick mash (2.57 l/kg or 1.21 qt/lb) and a thin mash (5 l/kg or 2.37 qt/lb). Home brewing literature suggests that thin mashes lead to more fermentable worts, but technical brewing literature suggests that the mash concentration doesn't have much effect in well modified malts [Narziss, 2005]. Briggs cites data that doesn't show a change in fermentability when the mash thickness is changed [Briggs, 2004]. This was confirmed by these eperiments where all the data points were on the same curve that had already been established in the temperature experiment.

Back to you later on the spreadsheet and thanks,
Pat

Pat I would say after playing around with thick and thin mash's your above quote has much merit.You cant always take what you read in home brew books as being gospel. I rather test theories myself and refer to proven scientific data.
GB

 

[buttersd70]

I tend to think that this is one of those funny issues where experts (not hb writers, but real experts, like narziss, muller, briggs, kunz, etc ) tend to contradict each other...and sometimes themselves. :lol: I'm thinking of Briggs, here, in particular. In BS&P, he states mash thickness has significant effects on fermentability...wheras the reference to Briggs' data in the braukaiser article states that it doesn't. Makes it very bloody hard for the layman, as each of the sources is highly respected.

Having had a bit of a play with mash thickness myself, I agree with Nev, that - at least on a HB scale - it doesn't make much difference. Not really surprising, given the amount of other variables that are not possible to micro manage anyway. It's one factor I stopped worrying about a long time ago.

 

[hairyson]

This is a draft of a spreadsheet I want to include in the BIAB FAQs. (This is a sub-topic of this thread I can be active on so you can expect a reply )

View attachment 30477

Whoops! Meant to write how to use the spreadsheet but forgot! Just change the red figures. Does that make sense?

PP,
there are some funny formulae in the 'Average' cells of the s/sheet I downloaded. Easy to fix, but just thought I'd point it out. Also it might be easier to use the XL formula =AVERAGE() than the sum/countif combo (might mean fewer mistakes )
ben

 

[PistolPatch]

Updated BIAB Volumes Spreadsheet

View attachment BIAB_Equipment_Set_Up_Volumes.xls

Changes

Fill Your Kettle to... : This very handy figure provided by WarmBeer has been added and should be quite accurate for straight-sided kettles. Wort expansion is exponential and so, even at mash temperatures, the figure should be very close. See my post here. Thanks a heap Brett!

Kettle Calibration Figure: This is now derived from WarmBeer's formula and so the same comments apply as above.

Approximate Mash Volume: Another excellent addition suggested/provided by ThirstyBoy. The figure provided by TB is a very good guide and any variance will be mainly due to your crush. Donya Dan!

Explanations

Here are some explanations to some posts made above....

Distribution of the Spreadsheet: Go for it Thirsty! If you want to give it a credit, then maybe credit it to BIABrewer.info as the only thing stopping the new stuff going up on BIABrewer.info is relocation of the host plus loading it all into new software. Doing this should be simple and not take much time shouldn't it? :blink: I think WarmBeer is going to have a crack at making further improvements. Once they are all done, maybe we can then at least get it onto the articles section of AHB instead of holding our breath! Maybe I should start posting the other stuff up there in sections as well?

Kettle Trub/Buffer: Sorry for the slow answer Lloydie. This is the most inaccurate figure of the spreadsheet and I will write another post immediately below specific to this. The principle though of this kettle trub/buffer figure is to ensure that new brewers have enough wort in their kettle at the end of the boil without having to worry about advanced trub management. In other words, they won't have to suck the guts out of their kettle.

The "Actual," Columns: This side of the spreadsheet also needs a fair bit of thinking through so I'll also comment further in my immediate post below, Benny. The principle of this though is to allow new brewers to take some real measurements on 5 brews and then adjust the base formulas to suit. Until we improve on this, the average will display #DIV/0! until a real figure is entered in one of the "Actual," columns.

Thanks again to the BIABers who kindly supplied the figures that are the base of the spreadsheet and to the guys above who have asked good questions or provided some excellent improvements.

:super:
Pat

 

[randyrob]

I'll be the first to pipe in - That is actually a pretty decent spreadsheet.

Clean, simple to understand and well explained

Nice work to the authors

77 Pages into the BIAB thread and something decent appears h34r:

 

[PistolPatch]

Improvements Needed to BIAB Volumes Spreadsheet (Help/Feedback Wanted!)

If you have any ideas/feedback on this spreadsheet then please let me know. For example, I have no idea whether it is actually easy for a new brewer to understand and use - I am just hoping and thinking it is! There are probably several ways the layout can be improved as well???

Here are a few problems I have with it and some of these are hopefully just me being pedantic....

Kettle Trub & Buffer Space

This is the only formula I am not happy with. I think the rest are the best we have available to date. On this particular formula, I am not too worried that on a 23lt brew length is provides for 5lts of trub. This allows new brewers to not have to "fight" to achieve their volume. 5lts in a large diameter pot is actually not an unreasonable figure and the spreadsheet is, after all, aimed at providing an easy starting point.

What I am worried about is if a new brewer uses this figure on a double batch. It will then be way out. For example, on the few figures we have collected on double-batches (all mine actually!) the trub only goes up by about 20%.

So, any crafty ideas on this?

The Actual Columns

Firstly, it would be nice to have the Average column display "0" instead of "#DIV/0!" when no figures are entered.

Secondly, I think some of the average figures could be misleading if the new brewer does wildly varying brews. Then again, I may be over-thinking this one. Perhaps it is only the kettle trub/buffer figure that could throw them out?

Thirdly, assuming the average figures yielded from the actuals above is reliable, there is no easy way of personalsing the existing formulas for those not savvy with Excel.

Once again, any ideas?

Locking of Cells

Maybe a lot of the cells should be locked so as they cannot easily be over-written or changed?

Any ideas on which ones?

:icon_cheers: in advance to all those who take the time and have a bash at helping out here.

Spot ya ron,
Pat

P.S. RandyRob is only taking the piss. He's the one who is going to sort the software side for us :beerbang: Donya Robby!

 

[hairyson]

Good work Pat, I think it's a nice simple s/sheet, easy to read and understand. I don't know if I would have understood everything in it when I first started brewing though, e.g. I had no idea what things like 'trub' were back then.

Maybe it needs to be made pretty obvious that it helps you to set up by working backwards.

the scientist in me says that instead of units for evaporation per hour being litres, the units for evaporation rate are litres per hour. similar story for grain absorption (i.e. litres per gram).

Firstly, it would be nice to have the Average column display "0" instead of "#DIV/0!" when no figures are entered.

>>You could just fill the cells with zeros as a default, or go all out and use a formula like this:
=IF(COUNTBLANK(E4:I4)=5,0,AVERAGE(E4:I4))
where countblank counts the number of blanks, so if there are 5 blanks, there aren't any figues yet!

Secondly, I think some of the average figures could be misleading if the new brewer does wildly varying brews. Then again, I may be over-thinking this one. Perhaps it is only the kettle trub/buffer figure that could throw them out?

>>Just point out in the s/sheet that this is a very rubbery figure, and depends a lot on their setup.

Thirdly, assuming the average figures yielded from the actuals above is reliable, there is no easy way of personalsing the existing formulas for those not savvy with Excel.

>>Put another column in next to the calculated numbers, labelled something like 'My numbers'?

ben

 

[LLoyd]

Kettle Trub & Buffer Space

This is the only formula I am not happy with. I think the rest are the best we have available to date. On this particular formula, I am not too worried that on a 23lt brew length is provides for 5lts of trub. This allows new brewers to not have to "fight" to achieve their volume. 5lts in a large diameter pot is actually not an unreasonable figure and the spreadsheet is, after all, aimed at providing an easy starting point.

What I am worried about is if a new brewer uses this figure on a double batch. It will then be way out. For example, on the few figures we have collected on double-batches (all mine actually!) the trub only goes up by about 20%.

So, any crafty ideas on this?

Maybe start with 5litres and say 4-4.5 kilos as a base, then start your small increases from that point.

Great work mate! I've got pages of notes and tables spread from arsehole to breakfast that I have to search thru every time I change a batch volume. Buggered if I could explain it all to a noob (or the CEO). This makes it as simple as it gets without glossing over WHAT you're actually working out.

Cheers

Lloydie

 

[Bribie G]

Great work. I've entered in all the figures for a typical Urn brew with a 4kg grain bill and it all works out sweetly except for the 4.8 L of kettle trub and buffer, the brew I did last night ended up with about spot on 3L and as you can see, with a bit of faffing around I could probably have sneaked a bit more wort off as I didn't whirlpool etc. I don't know if this would be the same in a Robinox pot or whatever? Diameter of the Birko is 35 cm so would a figure of 4.8 apply more to a wider squatter pot maybe?

 

[Scruffy]

60l Chef Inox. just under 4l left after whirling...

If that helps?

 

[3GumsBrewing]

Dudes, top top work. :super:

Will test out with 40L Crown urn this weekend.
I will adjust the kettle trub and buffer down to 3ish though. Above 4 seems like lots!

DK

 

[benrs44]

I guess this is making things totally over complicated... but it mght be useful to automatically adjust any readings back to a benchmark temperature, at any stage during the mash/boil, in order to account for thermal expansion. I searched the internet and found an equation to make a simple calculator on excel with the only problem being that the coefficient (that this particular site provided) is for water. It is possible to calculate an alternative coefficient based on gravity readings but I didnt really have anytime to put that together.

I just quickly (and very crudely) incorporated the equation into the actual figures side of things so that comparisons can easily be made on the run. I also changed the input method to cm so that a quick measurement with the ruler could be plugged straight into the spreadsheet and an adjusted figure would appear straight away. I'm not sure if this is suitable for others and this particular spreadsheet (maybe more of a checklist feature for some) but I will certainly find it useful in my coming brews.

A big thanks to those that put this together. I used it to calculate my water volume for my second BIAB on monday and despite overshooting (aiming for 22.5L I got 25.5L into the fermenter - I also lost a good 2L to the floor when i left the tap oped on the fermenter when i started transfering the cooled wort :huh: ) it assisted in my understanding which will hopefully help me to get it right third time around!

On another note: I put together a copper immersion chiller last week and when I first put the chiller into the boiling wort to sterilize. it slowed the boil (this resulted in slightly less boil off than i had anticipated). Next time, I am going to heat up my coil with water out of the tap before putting in the boil in an effort to prevent the heat loss during the boil. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Cheers
Ben

View attachment BIAB_Equipment_Set_Up_Volumes.xls.xls

Edit: changed the name of the spreadsheet back to original and fixed some changes i made.

 

[nikgr]

Very good work this solves a lot of problems with wanabe Biabers .Thanks for your effort. :super: :super:

 

[pdilley]

Ok New technology for BIAB the high tech way.


I changed the thermometer string to the same jute twine. This gave me an idea. Now I can hang the thermometer out of the way of touching the sides or the bottom of the brew pot.

I also can now wrap the jute loosely around the BIAB square non-sewn bag and now it instantly stays out of my way and wrapped up as I dunk like a mad Tea brewer for the first 20 minutes where the action happens in mashing.



Second High Technology Option.

After Michael got me going on his Sparge idea I decided to put the Big Funnel into a new repurposed life after draining wort to pitch back in for the boil.

Now I put the kettle on and boil up 2 Litres of water and then boil up 1 liter of water.

The BIAB bag in the Big Funnel blocks the water from reaching the drain hole.
Now the Grain acts like a water filter and I fill up the Big Funnel full of hot water and it drains sparged wort directly into my 5 Litre Flask.

Awesome!


I use this sparge NOT to go into the boil but to save in ALDI 2 Litre apple juice containers for wort for doing my yeast work.

Such as:
Re-culturing yeast directly from the bottle (after drinking the beer). No Hops in it means no fear of sunlight. No fear of sunlight means I can take advantage of the sun and get nice warm yeast crazy re-culturing action going on while my Brew Fridge is empty and turned off saving me some more electricity.


And using the wort to mix with Agar to make Yeast Slant Tubes to make a yeast library....

Lovin' it!


Cheers,
Brewer Pete

 

[PistolPatch]

Good to see your brain is still doing a heap of RPM Pete :icon_cheers:

Updated BIAB Volumes Spreadsheet

View attachment BIAB_Equipment_Set_Up_Volumes_130909A.xls

Changes

Average: Have changed the average column so as it stays blank if no figures have been entered. Once the brewer begins to add figures, the Average column displays the average of the figures that have been entered. (Thanks for the formula help benny and benrs44!)

Evaporation Per Hour: Changed units to lts/hr as suggested by Benny. Donya!

Special Note

I have been uploading the spreadsheet using the same filename each time which I think is a mistake as I think it affects all prior posts. I will keep changing the name from now on and hope this hasn't caused any problems to date.

Explanantions

Thanks again for the feedback randyrob, Lloydie, Bribie, Scruffy, DK, benrs44 and nikgr. Much appreciated. Here are some explanations...

I have used the beginning of your formulas Ben/s but changed the latter so as it gives the average of figures provided not the average of all 5 columns. Otherewise if someone just puts in a few figures, it would divide them by 5. Make sense?

I haven't changed the grain absorption to litres per gram as it is actually just a litre figure.

Still haven't come up with an idea for a reliable trub formula but getting the feedback on what people are scoring is very helpful. If we get enough figures, I suppose we could always add a drop-down box for people to select their kettle type and then have a formula based on this.

Finally I haven't included benrs44's temperature co-efficient. I want to chat more to him about this but will do it off-forum.

Thanks a heap guys!
Pat

 

[PistolPatch]

I put together a copper immersion chiller last week and when I first put the chiller into the boiling wort to sterilize. it slowed the boil (this resulted in slightly less boil off than i had anticipated). Next time, I am going to heat up my coil with water out of the tap before putting in the boil in an effort to prevent the heat loss during the boil. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Don't get too worried about that Ben. Here is what I do...

Put your chiller in at 15 or 20 minutes before the end of the boil - a bit before you have to add your flavour hops if you have them. Stop your clock until it returns to the boil and then re-start it. Add your flavour and aroma hops at the adjusted time.

Your chiller is a pretty dirty bit of gear and is hard to clean properly so it is a good idea to have it being boiled for 15 minutes or more.

There is no problem in stopping your clock. If you have a crappy burner then pre-heating your chiller as you have suggested certainly will help. If your burner will get you back to the boil within 5 or 10 minutes, then I wouldn't be bothered about mucking around with pre-heating it.

Spot,
Pat

 

[PistolPatch]

I have used the beginning of your formulas Ben/s but changed the latter so as it gives the average of figures provided not the average of all 5 columns. Otherewise if someone just puts in a few figures, it would divide them by 5. Make sense?

Sorry Ben/s, I just realised that the average figure formula you used works fine. Too many bloody spreadsheets floating around on my computer!

 

[PistolPatch]

Okay, experienced BIABrewers and new BIABrewers, how does this spreadsheet look?

View attachment BIAB_Equipment_Set_Up_Volumes_140909.xls

New BIABrewers

I'm not sure if new BIABrewers actually read this thread now but if you do, can you let me know either here or via PM as to whether this spreadsheet is easy for you to use or not? It is your feedback that is most needed.

Experienced BIABrewers

Hopefully the above "re-vamped" format is helpful to you guys as well. It incorporates benrs44's suggestion of adjusting for temperature - many thanks again benrs! (I have only created formulas on useful temperatures as thermal expansion is not a linear thing and is also pretty impossible to get right on varying SG worts!)

It's pretty hard to get things like this perfect for everyone though I have done my best. For example, I have changed the basic kettle trub/buffer figure from around 5 to 4 lts as I think it is a more reasonable figure even though I would now like to see new brewers having more wort than less.

Educating the New BIABrewers

We all end up with particular aspects of brewing that fascinate us. Some brewers quickly become skilled at recipe formulation, others at automation, some at chemistry whilst others develop some trivial obsession .

My two passions are efficient gear/equipment and the education of new AG brewers. Too often we experienced brewers forget how bewildering the world of AG was to us. Hopefully with BIAB this is less so.

Anyway, please let me know, here or via PM, if the above spreadsheet is helpful or confusing. Do you think that you, as an experienced BIABer, could easily help a new guy into understanding it?

Spot,
Pat

 

[RdeVjun]

Anyway, please let me know, here or via PM, if the above spreadsheet is helpful or confusing. Do you think that you, as an experienced BIABer, could easily help a new guy into understanding it?

Hi Pat, looks the goods to me, although I haven't actually used it and won't get a chance until later on this coming weekend. It tallies fairly well though with my last few batches with a bit of tweaking of the trubs.
It might seem pretty simple and obvious, but for mine the "End of Boil Volume (Batch Size)" value is perhaps the most useful part for planning, being able to plug a fairly reliable figure for that into a simple recipator is worth its weight in gold for getting started. Also the Total/ Approximate Mash Volume is very useful to see if your pot/kettle can handle it all, initially one batch of mine was too much, but I only found out too late.
Often I do the sums off the top of my head as I can predict the performance of my kit fairly well, but I really had no idea where to aim with volumes when I was starting to BIAB, so this is an excellent starting point for beginners as it does that pretty well. So, yeah, I'd say most beginners should be able to work through it, even without any assistance. Great work!!! :icon_cheers:
Edit: Spelling...

 

[PistolPatch]

RV, many thanks for the feedback above. My main computer has carked it so I am replying from a little laptop whilst I re-load Windows :angry: I thought doing the final touches on the spreadsheet the other night would take about 3 beers but it ended up taking about 30 - lol. I haven't checked it since but hopefully it is OK.

Thirsty's suggestion of the Total Mash Volume was a great idea along with the ben's thermal expansion corrections. These are things that you would think existing brewing software would include???

The more I chat with experienced brewers, the more confident I get of my doubts on the existing brewing software. (I found a major one about 6 months ago but you never hear about it - relates to mash tun deadspace so is not applicable to BIAB).

People talk about re-inventing the wheel. I reckon this is one wheel that could certainly do with some work.

So we have our volume spreadsheet, all we need now is an efficiency and hop utilisation one!

Thanks again RV,
Pat