A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

[Thirsty Boy]

Heating up after you add the grains is (I think) a typo/unclear message in the original guide, or at the very least an early method that no one uses anymore. I know that Pat (who wrote the guide) heats his water up, then adds his grain. Although I am assuming my memory is correct there, someone please let me know if I am misrepresenting the good PP.

Heat water to a little above your desired initial mash temperature - then add grain.

I am not aware of anyone that actually does it the other way around and certainly wouldn't recommend that anyone does.

Stirring - is mostly a personal preference. I sitr till the temp stabilises, stir and check the temp after 10mins, then leave it for the rest of the mash. Spillsmostofit check temp and stirs far more frequently and I know that other people do it differently again. Opening your lid and stirring it will cause you to lose more heat than leaving it closed.. so you may have to adjust your temperature more often (or at all) but apart from that it isn't going to hurt anything. Yes ...stir it well before you pull out the bag, and I recommend you also raise the whole mash up to a sparge level temperature of 76-78C before you remove the bag. Always stir constantly when adding heat to the mash.

Whirlfloc will possibly help with the final clarity and long term stability of your beer - but it is in no way "needed". Get some when you can and use it, until then your beer will be fine without it.

Reviled - you can do a decoction fairly easily with BIAB, but there are a few things to consider.

First - you speak of "opening your bag" .... If you are following the general guidelines for BIAB, your bag should not be closed in the first place. If you have deliberately changed this aspect of BIAB for reasons of your own, fair enough. BUT, in general the standard wisdom would have your bag open and secured around the top of your pot. Just like a bin liner in a garbage bin. The whole idea being that you are not mashing in a bag, you are mashing in a pot that happens to be lined with a bag. The bag should in no way restrict the grains etc from behaving in the same way they would if they had just been put into the pot without the bag there at all. I suspect rather strongly that closing the bag during the mash would defeat this goal significantly, as well as making it insanely hard to stir the mash effectively.

If you have your bag open and secured around the rim of your pot, then pulling a decoction fraction is ridiculously easy. You pull up the cloth on one side of your pot... soon you will begin to pull the grain fraction closer to the surface on the opposite side to where you are pulling. When the solid portion of the mash breaks the surface, you can scoop it out easily for your decoction portion (which needs to be mostly the grains, not the liquid. Just keep the minimum amount of liquid in it so you can boil it without burning it)

The you can let the rest of the grain fall back into the mash and merrily run your decoction.

Your decoction will be a little different though. In a normal decoction, you get the step from one rest temperature to the other, from adding back the boiling hot decoction portion... this works perfectly well in a "normal" mash, but a BIAB mash has a much larger volume than a normal mash, so your temp wont jump by the same amount when you put your decoction back in. You will have to add some of the temperature via your heat source on the main mash vessel. If you have brewing software... you can probably work out what temperature you need to get the mash to so that you hit your rest temp when you dump the decoction back in... but otherwise, maybe it would be better to add the decoction back in then hit the main heat source to get you the rest of the way. This is going to add even more time to your brew day though.

Decoctions are a pain in the arse, no matter which way you choose to mash. But, you can certainly do one if you BIAB and think its worth the trouble.

Thirsty

 

[Bribie G]

Usage of 40L urn.

I'm planning my BIAB + no chill setup for early to mid December and the workhorse will be a 40L electric urn and doing a batch that will end up 25L on fermentation as I will be bottling into 12 x 2L bottles.

I figure from the original PDF that the 40L urn is really going to be pushing it for full water volume + grains if using urn as a mash tun. I'm planning therefore to get a big cylindrical esky with tap and get a bag made to fit by our local seamstress on Bribie who takes all my pants up etc.. she's a gem.

So steps would be:

• Use urn as HLT
• Strike and mash in bag in cylindrical esky
• remove and drain bag and put all sweet liquor into urn
• Use urn as Kettle.

I'm trying to figure out how big an esky I'm going to need to end up with 25L in the no-chill cube. Any experienced BIABBers have any suggestions?

Not trying to bastardise the BIAB method too much, but if I can't get a big enough esky is it acceptable to do a sort of a batch sparge and drop the drained bag back into some hot liquor to get some 'second runnings' or is this going to introduce astringent extractions from the grain husks whatever?

Edit: in answer to the question "if you are using a dedicated mash tun why bother with a bag, won't a false bottom do?" well I think it's a brilliant idea to line with bag and just yank the whole spent grain bill out in one hit and send to the compost! So my method will basically be BIAB with 2 vessels not one.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Usage of 40L urn.

I'm planning my BIAB + no chill setup for early to mid December and the workhorse will be a 40L electric urn and doing a batch that will end up 25L on fermentation as I will be bottling into 12 x 2L bottles.

I figure from the original PDF that the 40L urn is really going to be pushing it for full water volume + grains if using urn as a mash tun. I'm planning therefore to get a big cylindrical esky with tap and get a bag made to fit by our local seamstress on Bribie who takes all my pants up etc.. she's a gem.

So steps would be:

• Use urn as HLT
• Strike and mash in bag in cylindrical esky
• remove and drain bag and put all sweet liquor into urn
• Use urn as Kettle.

I'm trying to figure out how big an esky I'm going to need to end up with 25L in the no-chill cube. Any experienced BIABBers have any suggestions?

Not trying to bastardise the BIAB method too much, but if I can't get a big enough esky is it acceptable to do a sort of a batch sparge and drop the drained bag back into some hot liquor to get some 'second runnings' or is this going to introduce astringent extractions from the grain husks whatever?

Edit: in answer to the question "if you are using a dedicated mash tun why bother with a bag, won't a false bottom do?" well I think it's a brilliant idea to line with bag and just yank the whole spent grain bill out in one hit and send to the compost! So my method will basically be BIAB with 2 vessels not one.

You have answered your own question really - if you are doing BiaB in two vessels teh way you suggest, you are more or less just replacing a false bottom/manifold with a bag. Therefore, your method much more closely resembles a batch sparge than a BiaB. So - you are actually going to be better off searching for batch sparge info to set your system up.

No astringency problems in a normal batch sparge - there wont be if you are using a bag either


As much as I like BiaB, in truth, by going down the road you suggest, you are retaining all the disadvantages of BiaB, but getting rid of most of its advantages - I think you will be better served by making yourself a nice tried and true mash tun. Use the bag as a liner for your mash tun, it isn't a bad idea - other people have done exactly the same thing. But stop thinking of it as BiaB - you are just going to confuse yourself.

OR - accept a few litres less and go with standard one vessel BiaB - You dont need to put 25L into one of teh willow cubes, I usually only put in 20-21, you just have to squish it a bit more.

Besides,your original assumption is a little flawed - that 40L urn will be right for 25L into the cube for beers up to about 1.060 (ie with about 6.5kg of grain) I calculate that you could put 24L into the cube up to 1.075 and 23 @ 1.090

So unless you are planning on making a lot of Barleywines and you insist on 25L of them... the 40L urn will be fine for filling a cube with most beers you care to make. Without the need for that separate vessel.

What you propose will work perfectly well - but I think your life will be easier and simpler if you go with either a traditional 2 vessel mash tun set up (you will want about a 45-50L eski and there is no need whatsoever for it to be cylindrical) - or a Traditional BiaB set-up

Thirsty

 

[Bribie G]

Thanks Thirsty, the only reason I was dubious about using the 40L for a mash tun was that in the original PDF the guys are using something like a 70L vessel and calculating for using the full liquor + grain volume at the start, then allowing for yanking out the spent grain, then wort evaporation during boiling etc. If the 40L can handle all the above for a final sg of around 1050 which is what I'm looking for then no probs, I'll go full BIAB in the 40L and make life cheaper and easier for myself.

As I may have mentioned I used to use a bruheat in the UK, it's basically a plastic urn, and it worked fantastically. The 'magic bullet' is that thermostat dial which the Birko has, which makes it possible to mash as well as boil. I notice that Ross has some peristaltic pumps that I could adapt to wort recirculation during mashing if they can stand around 65 degrees.

All starting to come together :icon_cheers:

Cheers

Michael

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Its pretty easy to work out the volumes Bribie, just takes a little number crunching.

Losses to trub/break: 25L to a cube - means you will want about 27 of post boil volume to allow you to leave behind a couple of lites of break material and trub.

Evaporation: The 2400W isn't going to boil the hell out of 25+L so your evap rate wont be really high - Lets say you will probably boil off about 12-15% of your volume during a 1 hour boil - say 12% 27L is 88% of 31

Grain Absorption: Your grain will absorb somewhere between 0.5 & 0.75 L of water for every KG - call it 0.75 to be pessimistic. And say you are going to use 6kg of grain, which is ballpark or a little high for 27L of normal wort - so thats another 4.5L. (should give you a gravity around 1.054)

so you need 31 + 4.5 = 35.5L of water in total.

Total Mash Volume: Grain adds about 0.66L of volume for every kg - and you have 6kg of it - so thats an extra 4L of volume and altogethre your mash volume will be

35.5 + 4 = 39.5 - which means you just get it inside your urn

So say you might have to sacrifice 1L of volume for each kg of extra grain you use if you want to make stronger brews. You also get back a couple of litres if you do what some people do (not the way I would do it though) and tip your whole kettle trub and all into the cube - siphoning off the clear wort on its way to the fermentor.

For a "normal" 1.050 ish beer, you just have enough room to fill that cube right up - or do a couple of less litres for stronger beer.

Oh - and you don't need to recirculate during the mash.... stirring it does the same job for your purposes. Something in the pot to keep your bag from directly touching the element, then stir well whenever the heat is on. My advice would be to not leave the element turned on while you have grain in the tun. Heat to your strike temperature, add grain - stir, take temperature. If you need to add heat - turn on the element and stir constantly till you hit your temp - then turn it off again. You can either check the temperature regularly (till you work your system out) and add heat when needed, or insulate the urn with a bit of camping mat or a sleeping bag or something, and it should lose bugger all temperature. Then you only need to add heat to get yourself up to sparge/bag-out temperature at the end of the mash.

That thermostat magic bullet - is not necessary at all and I really do suggest that during your actual mash - you ignore its existence, unless you want to stand there and stir the whole damn time anyway.

But - someone with an urn probably does all the opposite things to what I am saying - so I might be wrong. I know it will work if you do it the way I say... but I don't know for sure it won't work even better another way.

Mind you I can see the attraction of using a pump to re-circulate... just set that dial and walk away, no need to stir. noice.

TB

 

[Bribie G]

Thanks for the advice, Thirsty, I've cut and pasted it into a doc and will extract the guts out of it and pin it to my notice board in the brewhouse (garage) for future ref. along with other gems from the forum like Butter's hop boiling graph etc.

I'll post a wee blog about my first brew in a few weeks... I've actually run into a snag as pointed out on another thread that if I want to go to over 3000w I'll need to get a sparky in to fit a 15 amp socket $$$$$$$$ :unsure: so may at the end of the day need to go 2 - vessel with a 30L . Bugger Bugger, but I'm exploring all options.

As our Late Premier used to say there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Cheers
Michael

 

[Thirsty Boy]

2400W will do the trick - it'll just take a little longer to get to the boil thats all. Keeping the lid on while its rising to the boil and some insulation on the outside of the kettle - and it wont be too bad at all. Nothing like these smart buggers with their 250,000 btu gas burners... but certainly workable.

Also, get yourself a nice cheap timer - then you can have it set-up so that your strike water is already at temperature when you get out of bed/home from work/back from the footy. The urn can take an hour to get to temp if it likes, you wont be waiting around watching it though so it doesn't matter.

Of course 3000+ W is going to be faster, but you have to get the electricians in... so is it worth it to save 10 or 15 minutes on what will be a nice short BIAB brewday anyway??

Basically I am arguing from a theoretical point of view... but, I have a 2400W 40L urn that I use as a HLT in my system. If I were transferring across to full time BIAB - its what I would be using for my mash/kettle. Mind you - I am brewing a few less litres per batch than you plan too, so the little differences add up..

 

[Bribie G]

Thanks for all the info and number crunching etc, I've decided that BIAB is the way to go and have located 40l 2400w Birkos for $260 in Bris which seems like a brilliant deal.

For starters I bought a 1.5 m square of Swiss Voile from Spotlight yesterday and am at a complete loss about how to proceed. Have the services of a local lady who takes up my pants etc, now all I need is a pattern:
A -- tailored to fit the Birko

or

B -- just a big circle that will 'fit itself' into the Birko???

Any hints appreciated.



PS: as I may be sailing close to the wind trying for a 25L ferment - both volume wise and temperature wise - I'll probably drop to 10 x 2L bottles per brew instead of 12 so BIAB is a really practical option.

 

[Cocko]

Bribie,

I borrowed a sewing machine and learnt to sew to make my bag but I must say it has come out a treat after a few tips from the old cheese. It has stood up to 7 brews with no signs of wear! ALSO I do a 7 kg grain bill and it has stood up to that very easily.

My tips would be, measure the size you need it to be, and just fold the voile over and sew up the sides! So the bottom of the bag has no seams - its just a fold... does that makes sense?? Sort of like a pillow case I guess....

Second tip would be, ask you sewing lady if she can do french seams! A french seam is were you sew one side fold it over and sew the seam into itself, basically creating a little tube so the is no exposed edges AND it really ups the strength!!

As for the draw string, no tips here... I don't use one, I just fold the bag over the top and put an ocki strap around..... works a treat!

Maybe some help in this thread as well: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...+for+BIAB\

Hope it helps!

 

[Bribie G]

Thanks Cocko, I reckon just turning it into a sort of pillow case would incorporate the best of both my proposed designs as it would fit nicely into a cylinder and as you say the bottom would not be a weak point as in my design A.

I'll have to be careful of asking about the French thingos, she might take it the wrong way

 

[ikern]

I use a 40l urn for BIAB and it works well for me. It originally had a 3000W element in it but I managed to burn it out. I should clarify that it was an exposed element. I have an old SS chip basket sitting over it to stop the bag from melting. However, beware if you element is the exposed type. If you are planning on any sort of step mashing, including using a mashout step, be sure to stir your mash constantly while the element is on. The bag and the gunk that tends to settle on the bottom of the urn during the mash tends to create a hotspot that can give you hell if you not careful (I had a unplanned rauchpilsner as a result of my experience).

I ended up getting an over the side type element to supplement the urn element to get up to boil quicker. I then just let the urn element do it's thing once I get over the 'foam' stage.

With regard to the bag, my dragon-in-law (love her really) sewed mine but I asked her to have slits on either side of the bag for the draw string to come through so when I drag the bag up the tension is spread a little more evenly.

Anywhoo, you'll be fine with the 40L and BIAB is deadset easy so all the best with it.

Cheers :beer:

Soz

 

[Damian44]

I made my bag like your diagram, and it came out good. Make sure the circle base is a little bit bigger than the base of your pot.
Gryphon brewing sell them. They didnt go for the drawstring. http://www.gryphonbrewing.com.au/store/pro...products_id=341

I left my bag in while heating up too mash temp and mashout temp, not knowing any better. The bags fine, but i wont be doing it again.

 

[sumo]

So you end up taking out say a third of the water and the grains?!?! :huh: And then boiling it, grains and all??? Huh?

I can open the bag during mashing, I guess I could use a jug or something...

What about using multiple bags with 1/3 grain in each? Pull the bag, then syphon off 1/3 the water into another kettle etc?

 

[daemon]

A quick Q for the experienced BIAB operators, what adjustments do you make in Beer Smith for the mash profile?

I'm currently on my first BIAB batch and wanting to enter as much data as possible into Beer Smith. So far so good, sewing the bag was fairly easy (after googling for what all the different stitches mean!) and just going for small batches to start off (20L pot). As money and space permit I'm sure I'll step to a full setup, but I was too eager to wait until then

 

[Cocko]

Hey Mate,

I am only 7 BIAB's in and don't use Beer Smith, I use Beer Alchemy a similar mac program!

I have it set to: 'Single step infusion' then the mash temp 66 eg.

I hope this is correct, it seems like the most logical..... but...

Hope that helps :huh:

Cheers

Cocko

 

[daemon]

Cheers, just didn't know with it being a full volume mash how this affects things. Being very new to AG / BIAB I'm keen to understand it all as much as possible and using Brew Smith makes it very easy to track what I used and estimate what I'll make etc.

Here's a few quick picks from my first brew last night:


Basic bag, even a numpty like me figured out how to use the sewing machine.


The start of the mash, I put the lid on and only needed to apply heat twice (for a few minutes) during the 90m mash. Loved the smell!


Stove has a reasonable sized wok burner, which certainly helps when it came to getting a boil going.

Everything went very well so I just have to wait for the results now! It's only a 1/2 batch but a bloody cheap way to give it all a go. $20 for a pot from Big-W, $10 for the materials to make the bag and $20 for the ingredients. Now to plan my next brews and to find a source for a cheap kettle setup!

 

[wambesi]

Everything went very well so I just have to wait for the results now! It's only a 1/2 batch but a bloody cheap way to give it all a go. $20 for a pot from Big-W, $10 for the materials to make the bag and $20 for the ingredients. Now to plan my next brews and to find a source for a cheap kettle setup!

Looks the goods Daemon.
Nothing wrong with half batches - who says they're half anyway, whats a full batch? Everyone brews to different sizes.

Another great thing about smaller batches is if you stuff up or make something thats not too good, there's only a small amount to drink down, or more importantly allows you to experiment and brew more often!

 

[Crunched]

Brewed my first BIAB today - Screwy's Irish Red Ale. My setup consists of a keg-shaped 50L boiler with Mashmaster thermometer and SS tap. Using one of those 4-ring burners and a make shift wind-break (for Canberra's lovely weather today - pffft). All went well and now have a cube no-chilling away.

My OG turned out exactly as Screwy/Beersmith estimated, so I'm happy that things are so far, so good.

My first AG!

 

[Dunno]

Top work Crunched, hope it all comes up as planned for you. Just bringing my first AG (BIAB) to the boil. Have a 46lt batch of Docs Yard Glass session Light beer in the kettle. I am frequently on call at work so having a lighter beer on tap seems like a good idea. All going well so far I think. Not on call today so looking forward to the end of the boil to give my Belgian Pale on tap a decent nudge. Planning my next brew day for Friday already. Looks I have a boil going.

Cheers
Dunno

 

[Crunched]

Good stuff Dunno - glad to hear I'm not the only one having their first crack today. What sort of setup are you using?