A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

[Thirsty Boy]

I reckon you would most likely be getting more than 9% per hour or 3L per hour from a big pot like a 100L job.

But ... you say that you are getting the right numbers apart from volume?? if you were losing way too much to evaporation, then your OG would be higher than you expect it to be.

So, maybe its just a matter of how you/I are interpreting terms and how they are applied in in Beersmith etc.

Tell me EVERYTHING about your brew.

Exactly how much water you put in the pot at the start - exact grain weight - volume of kettle before the boil starts (after you have taken the bag out) - volume of the kettle at the end of your boil - the amount of trub etc you are leaving behind in the kettle - any extra anything you add to or take from the pot. Oh & whether you take the measurements hot or cold, it makes a 4%(ish) difference

If you dont have a way of measuring all these things, then you should. Knowing the state of your brew at every point means you can isolate where things are going wrong (if they do).

That way I can translate whats going on and help out if I can. If we are referring to one volume but mean two different things .... then its hard to make sense of each other.

For instance - if I was getting 40L into a fermentor of a wort of "normal" gravity say 1.05 then I'd probably have had a post boil volume of 42.5L, and in a 90min boil have boiled off 8L of water for a pre-boil of 50.5 and would have lost about 4.5L of water to my 9kg grain by absorption - meaning I would have started with 55L of water in the pot. With a bit of variance in the boil off or absorption rates - that could be the 52-54L "recipe" you were talking about. Which would make things almost perfectly normal.

Not saying that thats whats happening, just that the vagaries of communicating like this mean that it possible. Give us ALL the data and we can work it out for sure.

Cheers

Thirsty

 

[captaincleanoff]

Thanks Thirsty.

I have a good idea of ALL the data from previous brews, but not completely sure.

Will wait till I do my next brew, then will take note of ALL info, and will let you know!

 

[mikelinz]

>I reckon you would most likely be getting more than 9% per hour or 3L per hour from a big pot like a 100L job.

Hey Thirsty just after a bit of clarification here:

How do I calculate the boil off vol for different batch sizes using same boiling vessel. I assume a 44L batch won't lose twice as much as a 22L batch as the surface area is the same and a smaller vol will perhaps have a more vigorous boil. I boil in something that looks a bit like an old 80L CUB keg with the top cut off.

>Oh & whether you take the measurements hot or cold, it makes a 4%(ish) difference
I assume that hot gives you a slightly higher reading? When you say 4% above what temp does this apply? How do you allow for this in your calculation - add or subtract 4% from the total?

>and would have lost about 4.5L of water to my 9kg grain by absorption
So allow about .5L per KG of Grain

rgds mike

 

[captaincleanoff]

is there any limit at all to the amount of topping up after mash?

Using so much grain limits water volume quite a bit.. Is it fine to top up to the right boil level after mash, using 66c topup water?

 

[PistolPatch]

is there any limit at all to the amount of topping up after mash?

Using so much grain limits water volume quite a bit.. Is it fine to top up to the right boil level after mash, using 66c topup water?

Been a while since I have written anything in our old BIAB thread so Cap, here's maybe a quick answer for you...

Firstly, to answer your question properly, I think we need some more info from you. You said, "Using so much grain limits water volume quite a bit..."

BIAB uses the same amount of grain as traditional brewing so I'm taking a guess here that you are using a small pot/kettle??? Hopefully I have this right and if I have then here is my answer...

If you have a small pot/kettle and therefore cannot add the full volume of water you require at the beginning of the mash then you have a few options...

a) You can add water after you pull your bag out.
B) You can add water during the boil.
c) You can add water to your fermenter.
d) All or a combination of the above.

So, the answer to your question is simply, "Yes."

But, if you do have a small pot then adding the extra water at the end of your mash may make you prone to boil-overs so maybe d) is a better answer for you? In fact, as a new AGr, I'm inclined to think this is a better answer. So, if you end up with just 15 litres in your fermenter and need to top it up with 8 litres to score a 23 litre batch then do it. And, yes, you can use tap water.

My advice above would be totally incorrect if you wanted to brew an award winning pilsner where a skilled judge may well pick up something small that is inderscenable to 95% of other brewers. A lot of older AGrs aspire to this and gain much enjoyment and expel a heap of passion in trying to climb this last 50ft of the Everst of brewing.

What I am trying to say here though Cap is, given the right recipe, how forgiving all-grain (and even more so BIAB) is.

What I'm saying is that it is hard to stuff the Black Beer, the NRB All Amarillo Ale, or a Pale Ale recipe up if you give them a 90 minute mash and a 90 minute good rollling boil. You will get a great beer even if you have to top up in the fermenter with tap water by even well over a third of the volume.

The hardest thing I think for new AGrs is to recognise what to read and listen to at their level of brewing. Assuming an AGer knows the basics of cleanliness and temperature control then my advice would be...

1) Simple Recipe: Find a beer you like that can be brewed with SO-5 yeast.
2) Make sure that your mash thermometer is accurate (not as easy as it sounds though others will tell you different.)
3) Mash for 90 mins.
4) A good rolling boil for 30 minutes and then a little more gentle for the last 60 minutes. Do a 90 minute one though as a beginner.
5) Top up with tap water to your fermenter if needs be. If you end up with extra, measure it and then throw it away. You have more important things to do than save a few litres of wort like...
6) Set up a good recording system. Make your own up and make it on paper. After a year or two of brewing then you can make up your own computerised version.
7) If you are thrilled with a beer then this is a great beer. If not, then 9 out of ten times, you will have not have followed all of the above. If you have, then by now you will have made some good contacts who will taste your beer and tell you where you have buggered up!!!

Hope that helps Cap and it is great to see you and so many others cracking BIAB.

Good on ya!
Pat

P.S. And, yes, I know you are still wondering about topping up with tap water. It is OK unless you are trying to brew the perfect beer :icon_cheers:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

>I reckon you would most likely be getting more than 9% per hour or 3L per hour from a big pot like a 100L job.

Hey Thirsty just after a bit of clarification here:

How do I calculate the boil off vol for different batch sizes using same boiling vessel. I assume a 44L batch won't lose twice as much as a 22L batch as the surface area is the same and a smaller vol will perhaps have a more vigorous boil. I boil in something that looks a bit like an old 80L CUB keg with the top cut off.

>Oh & whether you take the measurements hot or cold, it makes a 4%(ish) difference
I assume that hot gives you a slightly higher reading? When you say 4% above what temp does this apply? How do you allow for this in your calculation - add or subtract 4% from the total?

>and would have lost about 4.5L of water to my 9kg grain by absorption
So allow about .5L per KG of Grain

rgds mike

Mike,

If you are using the same vessel, then your boil off is going to be pretty similar in litres per hour no matter what your starting volume is - perhaps a little less as the volumes go up. Thats assuming you don't change anything.

The thing is - its my opinion that you should change things.

Most people seem to treat boil off as a given thing that happens to them, I treat it as a variable that I want to control. I dont want to control it for its own sake - but because boil off expressed as a percentage of the starting volume of your boil, is a good indicator that your boil has or has not been vigorous enough to do all the things that it is supposed to - and that it has or has not been too vigorous and started to do some things that it shouldn't.

A nice wide safe zone for boil off rates is 8-15% of your starting volume. If thats what you are losing during your boil, then it is most likely that you have boiled hard enough to get rid of your DMS and other bad volatiles, coagulate your proteins and isomerise your hops etc etc - but you haven't boiled so hard that you risk re-dissolving some of the proteins, darkening your wort too severely and a few others. You might well get away with higher or lower rates, but 8-15% is safe.

Its pretty simple really - if you have 15L of wort and you throw all three rings of a three ring burner at it - then the boil is going to be super vigorous and you will be heaps higher than 15% - turn the burner down, maybe even use a smaller pot. when things are sensible, the rate will probably be in the 8-15% range

30L of wort - probably your three rings are going great and getting it about right

60L of wort - then your three ring burner might be struggling, maybe the boil is barely breaking the surface and you have more of a simmer than a boil. That rate in percentages is (probably) going to be on the low side or under the 8% mark. Better get a bigger burner. How big?? well... one that will get the rate up to 8-15% of the starting volume, then you are in the safe zone.

So thats what percentage boil off rates are for. As far as calculating your volumes etc etc, then if you are talking normal volumes of between 20-50L then you are better off using a litres/per hour rate which is likely to be roughly the same no matter what your batch size.

for example - For a 30L pre-boil volume, I get about 4.3L per hour out of my kettle. Which is 14.3% which is what I have tweaked my system to give me. If for instance I want to do a double batch, my pre-boil is going to be about 45L and then I would be getting a little less per hour (about 4.0) which is still 9% so I am still in the safe zone. Therefore I only care about the litres per hour figure so I can calculate my finishing volumes etc.

If however, as I frequently do - I do a smaller batch around 8-12L, then I need to do a bit of tweaking of my system or my boil vigor will be way to high - the percentage boil off figure is simply the tool I use to tell me when I have got it about right.

The 4% difference between hot and cold is technically between 0C and 100C but its close enough for government work for the difference between post boil and pitching temps. You just have to realize that 25L at 100C in your kettle - will turn into 24L (ish) at pitching temps -- so when you are wondering where that other litre went?? It can throw your sums out a bit if you measure some things when the wort is hot, and other things when its cold

I allow 0.5L/kg of grain for my BiaB brews - I think that in general people are getting an absorption rate somewhere between 0.5 and 0.75 L/kg - depending on how long you let the bag drain for and whether you squeeze it or not ( I am a squeezer) This is one of those things that varies from system to system. You will just have to find out what your rate is from experience. I'd start with 0.75 and see how it goes.

Sorry I took so long to answer your question - also sorry about the wordy post. But seeing PP post again whipped me into a frenzy of verbosity.

Cheers

Thirsty

 

[captaincleanoff]

Thanks so much Pistol, that clears a few things up! I owe you a few beers now, you've helped me out a few times!

I probably could have worded that better before. Grain obviously takes up volume... but I was just asking as I want to make the biggest batches I possibly can with my pot! Haven't topped up before, so you've answered any questions I had about it!

 

[reg]

Going to Pop my AG BIAB cherry on Saturday.
Got everything ready to, pick up grain tomorrow from G&G.
I am going to copy Barramundi's recipe from the vic case swap

5.0 kg Joe white traditional Ale
30 gms Northern brewer hops at 60 mins
30 gms Northern brewer hops at 0 mins
Whirfloc tablet

34 litres water at start
66 deg mash for 60 mins
77 deg for 10 mins

Boil for 90 mins with above hop additions

Aiming for somewhere around 1040 - 1045

Fingers crossed for a hassle free day.

 

[PistolPatch]

No worries Cap!

Reg,

Will look forward to seeing how you go and best of luck to you.

That's a great simple recipe you have there. Copying someone else's recipe you really enjoy for your first brews is a very intelligent way to start BIAB or any sort of all-grain.

You have proposed doing a mash out as well for your first brew and while not necessary, will give you a tad extra efficiency and will also, "stabilise," your beer. (I've never had an answer that I really understand on what, "stabilise," means and I can never taste a difference but I tend to do it now anyway!)

One thing though in this thread that I haven't seen is a description of how to do a mash out or "rests" with BIAB. As I am in a writing mood, maybe I should have a crack at this???

Firstly to do a mash out or a rest with BIAB is really simple and very accurate if you have a skyhook. A skyhook means an anchor above your kettle that you can attach a rope to, enabling you to raise or lower your bag. A skyhook and pulley system is the gold of BIAB. With this method, you can raise the bag so that the grain floats on top of your liquor whilst applying heat.

The silver of BIAB is a cake stand that sits at the bottom of your kettle to prevent uneven/very high temps touching the grain in your bag. I think to acheive this, you will need a cake stand that keeps your grain bag 5cm from the bottom of your kettle. Hard to find and serves no purpose during the boil and definitely needs to be ditched before the boil if you syphon from your kettle.

The bronze of BIAB is nothing at all. This means that you have to constantly agitate your mash whilst applying any heat to your kettle. I did this for over a year as I was brewing inside a rented apartment and therefore could not drill a hole for a skyhook. It's not a big deal but the sooner you get a skyhook the better.

So, to do rests and mash-outs I do as follows. I have the skyhook now so you will have to adjust the following to your equipment i.e. occasional stirring for silver and constant stirring for bronze....

Let's assume a 66 degree mash, a 72 degree rest (have no idea what this does but I do it now) and a 78 degree mash out.

At the end of mash I put my mash paddle (a paint stirrer which looks like a very large potato masher) into my bag. I then thread my pulley rope through tabs I have in my bag (see earlier in this thread for bag design) and then raise my bag to ensure that it is well above the base of the kettle but not so high for the top of the grain to be not submerged.

I then apply heat and wait for it to reach 72. Once it has reached 72 degrees I drop the bag back in and give it a jiggle with my masher and then wait around ten minutes. If you are brewing in cold weather, (like ten degrees) you can leave the inner ring on low for this period, just raise your bag as described in the para above.

Do the same again for the 78 mash-out.

Simple!

Rests and mash-outs take some or a lot of time. I'm sure that there is a lot of science out there that tells us that we should do them. Just the same as there is science out there that tells us to brew at certain liquor to grist ratios. I have never been able to taste a difference in ale recipes brewed both ways. As for stability issues, I brewed a BIAB lager that travelled the Nullabor over a 3 month period being exposed to temps of well over 40 degrees. The end result was that his lager was as boring, 6 months later as it was two months after I brewed it. i.e. no off-flavours!

So, if you don't have a skyhook, make sure you mash for NINETY minutes and then just pull your bag out.

If you have Gold BIAB?

What I do if I am in a rush and don't want to stop for rests and mash-outs is just raise my bag at the end of the mash, wait until it gets to 78 and then I just pull it out.

Too easy!

Oh and ThirstyBoy thought he was in a frenzy of verbosity!!!! (Good on ya Thirsty answering all the questions here )

Sorry my post is so short - I am out of practice.

Good luck Reg,
Pat

P.S. My next post here is going to be on that silly brewing thing called efficiency. Thirsty and I have been discussing this over-rated, confusing, mis-leading and relatively very unimportant subject for some time. In the meantime, do as reg has done and just find a recipe you like. If you do end up taking an efficiency measurement then let us know when you took it, i.e. pre-boil, end of boil or in the fermenter.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Hey Pat - PM sent (or about to be) about what "stabilise" means. Not for you, only for fly spargers.

TB

 

[reg]

OK so cherry has been popped.

Day went reasonably well considering I forgot that I had given my gas bottle away since BBQ now on natural gas.
Answer was to use the pot on the flame tamer of the BBQ.
Did a 90 minute mash and a 75 minute boil
was very pleased with the whole day.

Have another bag of grain cracked ready for the next brew!!!!

I am going to post some pics in my blog in the next couple of days.

Ended up with a reading of 11.8, 12.0 on my refractometer..is this good?
I have to have a look at some charts as this is a new toy still working it out..

Thanks to everyone for their advice..

Edit: Just had a look at a chart and it comes out at 1.048

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Nice work reg,

Dunno if your figures are good or bad, cause I'm not sure what you were aiming for ..... But, 1.048 is a lovely figure for a nice normal strength beer. A standard sort of fermentation will see you at a 5% abv and I bet it tastes great.

Welcome to the world of AG. Well done.

Thirsty

 

[stowaway]

Does anyone know if there is a BIAB instruction youtube video?

would like to watch it before i jump into it.

 

[PistolPatch]

Sorry Stow there are no videos. There are only a very few brewers on the Gold Coast and I don't know of any who do BIAB.

My only suggestion is for you to read the .pdf several times and look at the pictures. Also look at ThirstyBoy's American thread which also has pictures. Do this a few times and write down any questions and then ask them here. You will certainly be helped out.

Getting your head around all-grain can take a little while as there is, for a beginner, too much info out there. Just concentrate on the above two things, ask some questions here and your confidence level will rise dramatically.

Good luck,
Pat

P.S. Still working on my efficiency essay - trying to get it down to a few hundred words which would be an outstanding feat for me

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Does anyone know if there is a BIAB instruction youtube video?

would like to watch it before i jump into it.

Patience grasshopper - its being worked on.

But, you will need a fair bit of that patience, production has taken a firm backseat to life ATM. If there are specific bits you really really want to see before you take a leap, maybe I can help .... but going to a brewday with someone would be better. No one from the BiaB register anywhere near you??

Thirsty

 

[captaincleanoff]

thanks heaps Thirsty and Pistol for all of your help. I've got those volume issues figured now.. I was just underestimating boil off and grain absorbtion.

I absolutely love brewing this way. Have done one every weekend for about 4 months now! Have lost count of how much I've done.

I'm making the best beers I've ever made now... I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this to anyone, give it a go!

Again, thanks Pistolpatch.. You have taught me much.

 

[mikelinz]

Hi Guys Long question hopefully simple answer.

My setup

50L electric HLT + Temp controller (plan an setting this on a timer so water is ready)
70L Boiler + Slow 3 burner (takes 45min to get from mash temp to boil - yes i'm going to replace it as soon as I can afford the plumber to set up my NG system)
Pre Boil volume 66L


I was planning on mashing just using 45L from HLT preheated to 70c assuming i will lose a few degrees to boiler and grain which i can then adjust to mash temp with the burner. Is there a better strike temp??? How do I calculate it?

Then I thought I would heat the balance of the batch (21L) in the HLT while mashing. At the end of the mash I would then add the 21L to the boiler to bring up to volume and increase the temp hopefully to get to boil quicker.

So 2 questions here - does this idea work and how do i calculate what temp to have the second lot of water up to (or do I just get it up to as close to boiling as I can?

My theory is that this will save me a couple of hours at the start (getting water up to strike temp) and possibly cut another half hour off getting up to boiling temp.

Thanks in advance mike

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Mike, your set-up and plans will work just fine.

As a matter of fact you will be not only saving yourself a bit of heating time, you will be avoiding almost all of the "issues" that people believe might occur when you choose BiaB as a system. In short, you get (pretty much) the best of both worlds.

What I would do with your set-up

First, download a copy of Pro-mash, the trial version is free free and does everything that the full version does, you just cant save recipes. Pro-mash has a lovely tool that will help you to calculate the correct temperature for your strike water, so you reach your desired mash temperature. You tell it how much grain you have, what temperature the grain is at, how much water you are putting in and what temp you want it to end up at... and it tells you how hot to heat your water. Easy peasey. The temperature you are aiming at will depend on the beer you want to make. It should be a part of the recipe.

Pro-mash also has lots of other tools including ones that will help you design your mashes so you get the right volumes out at the end. For free, its a must have tool in my brewing.

I would mash-in with enough water (at the calculated temperature) for a normal L:G ratio, so somewhere between 2.5&3 litres of water for every kg of grain, mash for your 60min or whatever the recipe says. Add heat with your burner if you need to, but scorching and bag melting will be a bit more of an issue with the thicker mash, so stir stir stir if you have flame on.

Then add the rest of the water needed to the mashtun as "sparge water" I would add this water at a temperature hot enough to bring the whole volume up to mashout/sparge temperature. Pro-mash has a tool that can help you work out what temperature the water should be, but a rough estimate is -: Assuming you still want 66L of water in total, you started with 10kg of grain and 30L of strike water, your mash temp is 67. The you would be adding 36L of water and it would need to be at 88.5 to get your total mash to a mashout/sparge temp of 78C

BTW - your 66L of water plus say 10kg of grain are all going to add up to about 75L.... so you might need to re-think you batch size a little or do a little juggling till you pull the bag out. All that volume is going to give you a post boil volume on the order of 50L, which will put say 45-46 into the fermentor for you. You could also just drain a bit of the wort out into a bucket before you add the sparge water, that would actually make you system fractionally more efficient, but adds another thing to worry about

Ok, after you have added all the water - put your burner on and start stirring - give it a good stir for a couple of minutes and then pull out your bag. Leave the burner on. For a batch your size you are gonna need a pulley or something. While the bag is hanging over the pot draining completely, your wort is coming up to boiling temp.

Boil etc as per normal.

If you really want it to get to the boil faster - and you dont mind mucking about a bit, you could split off some of the wort into the HLT and throw both electricity and gas at it, then pour it back into the kettle when its nearly up to the boil?? A bit dangerous and a bit of a PITA, but it would save time if thats whats important.

What you will have, because you have a separate HLT, is more or less a cross between a BiaB system and a batch sparge system. With a bit of imagination and a spare bucket, you could do either.

Pro-mash is your friend, brewing is a forgiving art. Good beer will almost certainly be the result, and you can refine as you go.

Have fun

Thirsty

 

[stowaway]

Okay, im trying to get my head around BIAB.. First timer here. I have dumbed it down a bit for myself.

I plan to brew this receipe:

3.5 kg BB Ale Malt
1 kg Weyermann Munich I
0.5 kg BB Wheat Malt
10 g Magnum (Pellets, 11.5 AA%, 60 mins)
15 g Simcoe (Pellets, 11.9 AA%, 10 mins)
15 g Simcoe (Pellets, 11.9 AA%, 0 mins)
12 g DCL Yeast US-05 - American Ale

Single Infusion Mash @ 66*c, Ferment @ 18*c

My Method ( I think ) :
Add 38litres to my 60litre StockPot
secure Mash Bag
Add a BB ale MAlt, Weyermann Muchich + Wheat Malt (I think i add them all together?)
bring temperature to 66Degrees
Agitate & maintain at 66degrees (for 90 minutes)
Remove mash bag
Gravity Check
Raise temperature to rolling boil
Skim scum off Surface
Top up water if required + add 1 table spoon of salt
add hop sock with magnum pellets
boil. 50mins
Add hop sock with 15g simcoe pallets
10mins
add 15g simcoe pallets
flame off
Use siphon/aerate to move Wort to fermenter (no chill method)
Seal Fermenter
Wait until 23degrees
Pitch Yeaste

ferment at 18Degrees

Pray I did it right.

 

[mikelinz]

Mike, your set-up and plans will work just fine.

Thanks Thirsty - yup stuck my bag to the bottom of the kettle - first time ever the wife distracted me with an I just need you for 5mins. Oh well cost her a new bag and managed to rescue the brew.

Thanks for the great advise. I use Beersmith but have promash (somewhere) I will have a play and see if i can do what you suggest in beersmith first.

rgds mike