A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

[Thirsty Boy]

Thirsty, Pat,

All the tannins and unconverted starch may just make this wort crystal clear

Biggest problem I can see is scorching of the grain.

Pat, the advantage is - You dont need a bag!

Pale ale would be a good style to test.

cheers

Darren

Dunno about tannins and unconverted starch making anything crystal clear.... and even if it is it may well taste horrible.

Might not need a bag... but how am I going to separate the grains out post boil?? I shall probably use a colander lined with a filter cloth... for which I will just use my "bag" I suppose a colander and a bit of cheesecloth is easier than a bag... but not a lot. I dont see it as a huge advantage... marginal at best.

But... rather than conject, I shall give it a go. Not gonna get scientific and do controls, calibration and all that guff, But I will split the wort into two halves... same mash. half boiled with half the grain, half normally (BIAB) lautered. Then I will assemble a tasting panel and we will do some triangles.

Fair ?? Not gonna happen in the next week or so though, I've brewed twice this week already and have neither the motivation nor the fermentors to brew again very soon.

Thirsty

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

... I've brewed twice this week already and have neither the motivation nor the fermentors to brew again very soon.

And *that* is what's wrong with young people today...

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Transferring an argument to the thread I think it belongs in...

The main thing put forward to this is trying to tell people BIAB is the easiest and best way to start your first brew because you only need a kettle and a bag instead of a 3 vessel system as if there is nowhere in between the two.

Say you start with a kettle then the choice is yours should you get a bag made up or a mashtun because either one is all you need.
For using a mash tun you can heat your liquor in your kettle and hold it in your fermentor or any old bucket while your draining the wort into the kettle etc, everyones clearly got a fermentor ready.

So given this it is simply a choice between hey should I sew up a bag or build a mashtun. The arguement is the bag is cheaper and easier but infact you can make a mashtun for pretty much next to nothing. I just scored two 20L mayo buckets from a hotel for nothing and drilled holes in the bottom of one and sat it inside and put a couple dollar tap on the bottom one. So all it costs was a couple dollars.

I think it should be fairly clear which method would be the better and easier of the two.

I'am not trying to say here BIAB is no good at all I'am simply trying say building a mashtun doesn't need to be anymore costly or harder and that you don't need anymore equipment than that.
A mayo bucket with holes drill everywhere could possibly make a good basket for this BIAB idea but using it as a mashtun would be the direction I would advise.

Jayse. I have only one issue with what you have said above.... this

"I think it should be fairly clear which method would be the better and easier of the two."

You are right, it is clear to me, the bag would be the easier and better of the two.

My understanding is that bucket in bucket lauter tuns are not particularly good, they work, but they are far from the best lauter tun option you could choose. I certainly dont know this for sure having never used one, but there aren't very many brewers who dont upgrade from the bucket in a bucket fairly quickly upon getting the chance. Or are you planning to swap to using the buckets you scored and converted into a mash tun, as your primary wort separation method?

Whereas I beleive the bags work very effectively and wont require upgrading unless you want to go bigger, or they wear out.

However, I dont think that's what you meant. I suspect you meant that its fairly clear that the buckets would be easier and better than the bag......

Easier - well, I say that thats debatable. The bag is certainly easier to use than a mash tun. To build, dunno, could go either way I reckon - its certainly easier to get your wife to sew your bag, than to have to personally drill hundreds of holes in a bucket - but that might be cheating I suppose. As for cheap.... couple of bucks for a tap, couple of bucks for some cloth... I'd call it a tie.

Better - this is where I really have the issue. Why?? Why is the bucket better? You say it is as though its self evident, but its not. You haven't provided so much as one single reason why. WHY ????


MAH - I dont think anyone is painting a mashtun as a disadvantage. Mash tuns are obviously great bits of gear that work fantastically well. If you have one already.

I agree that an eski/hose braid MT isn't all that hard or expensive to build... its just that i think it is harder and more expensive than the bag. And then if you decide that you want to move on from the bag to an MT... you have really only wasted a few bucks on material, and you can always re-sew it into hop socks, wort strainers etc etc if you want to be truly stingy

As you said, no one is saying that BIAB will make better beer than a trad system. I think we all started out with the expectation that it would actually be at least a little inferior as a method, a compromise between space, money, time, effort - and a measure of quality.

But as more and more BIAB beer has been produced; it just doesn't seem to be working out that way. The beers pretty much seem to be on a par with the ones produced by all the other methods... there are still a couple of question marks about very long term stability... but thats about the only issue I can think of that might still be outstanding on the quality front. I might be wrong, but thats my understanding of the situation.

So, from my perspective

Mash tun based systems can be reasonably cheap and easy to make, not all that hard to learn and use; and are a great system for producing excellent beer..... But

BIAB based systems are even cheaper and easier to make, even easier to learn and use; and are a great system for producing excellent beer.

So to me, I think that I would be doing a prospective new brewer a disservice by not pointing out to them, that this was an option they should consider.

Actually, I dont really even recall (I may just be stupid though) a time when someone has in any significant way tried to dissuade a new brewer from going with a trad system. I've seen plenty of "what gear do I need to go AG" questions answered with a "have you considered starting with BIAB" and pointing out the advantages. But thats no more mash tun bashing; than suggesting a batch & braid system would be having a crack at sparge ring and false bottom rigs...

Basically I cant see what is wrong with people offering genuine advice or opinion on different methods for brewing... no matter which one. If you think your method is better, advise them to try yours instead "its better because....."

Thirsty

 

[PistolPatch]

Oh Thirsty! I'm so happy I started the BIAB Bling thread

Thanks for your sensible and courageous posts there mate. Your fingers must be worn out!

Here's my response as to some reasons why people should think twice before they advise that a mash tun system is easier, just as cheap or better than BIAB.

1. All of Thirsty's Reasons above and the many others that have been written about elsewhere in this thread or the forum.
2. Building a Mash Tun is not as easy as people make out for many novice brewers unless they have someone to help them along. Understanding the principles of a mash tun can be a very confusing, contradictory subject to learn about. It is often expensive as well. As Thirsty said, not many people stay thrilled with the bucket in bucket system and so you need an esky, a tap mechanism and a manifold. THe manifold is one area that gets very confusing due to the high amount of conflicting advice.
3. Mash Tun Temperature: To correct the temp in a mash tun system requires either very expensive pumping and heating mechanisms, an immersion element or cheapest of all, adding hotter water which can be a tricky thing to judge. With BIAB, you just add some flame for a minute or so and therefore can easily keep things accurate at zero expense.
4. Tiers or Levels: This is a major factor that no proponent of mash tuns has mentioned in the bling thread. It is VERY major. Jayse's idea of just having a 2 vessel system and using the fermenter to fill the gaps, ignores just how big those gaps are. How do you transfer the hot water from your kettle into the HLT? How do you transfer the mash from HLT to fermenter? How do you transfer wort from fermenter into the kettle to be boiled? You'll certainly want at least silicone hosing but you are now looking at 5 syphonings per brew instead of just one as you get with BIAB. THat's a MAJOR gaps. You are also going to either have to lift the vessel to a height that can be syphoned or create or build 3 levels on which to brew on unless you want to buy a pump. Taps and stands cost money. The end result tis still going to be a more complex and harder to operate system.
5. Sparging Knowledge: Once again this is a major hurdle for the novice brewer. The advice out there is often poor and/or conflicting. A novice even before getting their head around the spargiing process has to understand the difference between fly and batch-sparging and then know enough about them to be able to work out if people's advice refers to batch or fly.

Of course I could write a lot more and I and many others have written more before. But surely what Thirsty has written and the above though are enough to prevent the thinking brewer from writing some of the things that have been written in the bling thread?

Going to write some more here now but as it is a few different subjects, I'll put it in a separate post.

Spot,
Pat

 

[PistolPatch]

Darren's Proposal

Thirsty, where Darren says you won't need the bag in his proposal, I'd say that what you would do is treat the end of the boil as one big batch-sparge. In other words, drain some wort off until it becomes clear, tip it back in the kettle and drain slowly.

I must say I'm not real confident in what the beer would taste like but I'd love to see the test. I mean maybe it will taste alright? Could it?

Looking to get back into AG after 3yrs,This sound like a easy way to begin.Have only read a few postings,Have a few questons if anyone can help.What size bag?Are they easy available.Do you have to sparge?

Wrightyman

Sorry Wrighty. It looks as though your question got a little lost.

I reckon what you will need to do is download the BIABBooklet that you can get from Post #1 of this thread. It has lots of lics and will answer all your questions. You'll also need to read the first line of the first post as it will direct you to one major correction to the guide.

I trust this will give you all your answers plus a lot more.

Looking at doing my first BIAB as my grain bill is starting to get too big for my partial set up. The equipment i have is a 40L and 10L urn. Questions are can i put a weldless thermometer through the side of he big urn or will this pierce the bag? Where is the jury on using a bucket and sparging? I have a small roll of SS mesh could i use this to make the basket or will the mesh size be too large?

Thanks Dan

Looks like some of your questions got missed too Dan. I'm all written out here now but have sent you a PM that should help.

Cheers
Pat

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Darren's Proposal

Thirsty, where Darren says you won't need the bag in his proposal, I'd say that what you would do is treat the end of the boil as one big batch-sparge. In other words, drain some wort off until it becomes clear, tip it back in the kettle and drain slowly.

I must say I'm not real confident in what the beer would taste like but I'd love to see the test. I mean maybe it will taste alright? Could it?
Sorry Wrighty. It looks as though your question got a little lost.

I reckon what you will need to do is download the BIABBooklet that you can get from Post #1 of this thread. It has lots of lics and will answer all your questions. You'll also need to read the first line of the first post as it will direct you to one major correction to the guide.

I trust this will give you all your answers plus a lot more.
Looks like some of your questions got missed too Dan. I'm all written out here now but have sent you a PM that should help.

Cheers
Pat

Slightly OT. Personally I cant wait to see my first BIAB done by you Biabers.Beware I will pick the sh.t out of your processes. As an expierienced brewer I find any inovation too tempting to miss.You never know I may try one myself but with my own slant (hessian sack maybe).Keep the bag clean and treat the knockers mean.All in fun. Cheers Gryphon brewing

 

[jayse]

I really didn't want to get into this argument but it looks like its a bit late for that so I'll make a final parting post and bow out and quite happily be thought the dude in the wrong.

This post has nothing at all to do with BIAB at all its a post about how brewing is not as hard as Pat would have you believe.

Here's my response as to some reasons why people should think twice before they advise that a mash tun system is easier, just as cheap or better than BIAB.

2. Building a Mash Tun is not as easy as people make out for many novice brewers unless they have someone to help them along. Understanding the principles of a mash tun can be a very confusing, contradictory subject to learn about. It is often expensive as well. As Thirsty said, not many people stay thrilled with the bucket in bucket system and so you need an esky, a tap mechanism and a manifold. THe manifold is one area that gets very confusing due to the high amount of conflicting advice.

I'am not starting to think twice yet.
Its maybe thoughts like this that make it sound like its confusing, conflicting and contradictory. Its not rocket science.
Most novice brewers are maybe getting there heads around this for the first time but its not the first time they have had to use their brains.
It seems your trying to actually make it sound more difficult than it is on purpose to help your arguement.

The how to brew books or online have all the information needed on mashtun design etc plus more and is written by a well respected member of the brewer community.

3. Mash Tun Temperature: To correct the temp in a mash tun system requires either very expensive pumping and heating mechanisms, an immersion element or cheapest of all, adding hotter water which can be a tricky thing to judge. With BIAB, you just add some flame for a minute or so and therefore can easily keep things accurate at zero expense.

Don't forget we all had to get degrees in rocket science which cost quite a lot :unsure:
Again your trying to make it sound more of a drama than it really needs to be.

4. Tiers or Levels: This is a major factor that no proponent of mash tuns has mentioned in the bling thread. It is VERY major. Jayse's idea of just having a 2 vessel system and using the fermenter to fill the gaps, ignores just how big those gaps are. How do you transfer the hot water from your kettle into the HLT?

How do BIABers get the wort from the kettle into the fermentor? well do the same thing for this.

How do you transfer the mash from HLT to fermenter?

why would the mash be in the HLT and why would you want to put it straight into the fermentor?

How do you transfer wort from fermenter into the kettle to be boiled?

Thats a bit backwards the wort goes from the kettle into the fermentor and would be the exact same way as you do it for BIAB.

You'll certainly want at least silicone hosing

You only need one piece.

......but you are now looking at 5 syphonings per brew instead of just one as you get with BIAB. THat's a MAJOR gaps. You are also going to either have to lift the vessel to a height that can be syphoned or create or build 3 levels on which to brew on unless you want to buy a pump. Taps and stands cost money. The end result tis still going to be a more complex and harder to operate system.

You'd only need two levels, everyone I know has the first level sorted the ground! Second level can be anything from the BBQ, old table, back of the ute. I don't know buts it not to hard to work out.
Don't you need that anyway to BIAB to get the wort into the fermentor?
Theres no real major extra lifting anything but I'am not about to explain how to brew from the start to finish right here. Hey wait don't you need to lift for BIAB? actually to the point your thinking of setting up a skyhook.

5. Sparging Knowledge: Once again this is a major hurdle for the novice brewer. The advice out there is often poor and/or conflicting. A novice even before getting their head around the spargiing process has to understand the difference between fly and batch-sparging and then know enough about them to be able to work out if people's advice refers to batch or fly.

Your really trying your hardest.
I don't see how learning about sparging which can be summed up in a couple paragraphs is any different than learning about BIABing.
Do your mash, drain add your needed water then drain again, simple.
major hurdle? hardly
advice often poor and/ or conflicting? never found that to be true. Its quite simple, nothing like you try and make it out to be.

Of course I could write a lot more

Of course you could.

But surely what Thirsty has written and the above though are enough to prevent the thinking brewer from writing some of the things that have been written in the bling thread?

What thirsty has said is great, he's not trying to tell people that novice brewers are stupid and that traditional brewing is harder than it actually is like you are.


prevent the thinking brewer from...............
This is a internet forum and I'am always right
I'am not even knocking BIAB I'am knocking the way you seem to think traditional brewing is something no novice brewer could possibly get there head around.
BIAB clearly has less equipment less steps etc and I have no problem with the all in one brewery ideas but you don't have to make all these exhagerations on how complex traditional brewing actually is to try and sell your ideas.

Anyway I'am quite happy to bow out of this arguement and be wrong, don't really care.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

I really didn't want to get into this argument but it looks like its a bit late for that so I'll make a final parting post and bow out and quite happily be thought the dude in the wrong.

This post has nothing at all to do with BIAB at all its a post about how brewing is not as hard as Pat would have you believe.
I'am not starting to think twice yet.
Its maybe thoughts like this that make it sound like its confusing, conflicting and contradictory. Its not rocket science.
Most novice brewers are maybe getting there heads around this for the first time but its not the first time they have had to use their brains.
It seems your trying to actually make it sound more difficult than it is on purpose to help your arguement.

The how to brew books or online have all the information needed on mashtun design etc plus more and is written by a well respected member of the brewer community.
Don't forget we all had to get degrees in rocket science which cost quite a lot :unsure:
Again your trying to make it sound more of a drama than it really needs to be.
How do BIABers get the wort from the kettle into the fermentor? well do the same thing for this.
why would the mash be in the HLT and why would you want to put it straight into the fermentor?
Thats a bit backwards the wort goes from the kettle into the fermentor and would be the exact same way as you do it for BIAB.
You only need one piece.
You'd only need two levels, everyone I know has the first level sorted the ground! Second level can be anything from the BBQ, old table, back of the ute. I don't know buts it not to hard to work out.
Don't you need that anyway to BIAB to get the wort into the fermentor?
Theres no real major extra lifting anything but I'am not about to explain how to brew from the start to finish right here. Hey wait don't you need to lift for BIAB? actually to the point your thinking of setting up a skyhook.
Your really trying your hardest.
I don't see how learning about sparging which can be summed up in a couple paragraphs is any different than learning about BIABing.
Do your mash, drain add your needed water then drain again, simple.
major hurdle? hardly
advice often poor and/ or conflicting? never found that to be true. Its quite simple, nothing like you try and make it out to be.
Of course you could.
What thirsty has said is great, he's not trying to tell people that novice brewers are stupid and that traditional brewing is harder than it actually is like you are.
prevent the thinking brewer from...............
This is a internet forum and I'am always right
I'am not even knocking BIAB I'am knocking the way you seem to think traditional brewing is something no novice brewer could possibly get there head around.
BIAB clearly has less equipment less steps etc and I have no problem with the all in one brewery ideas but you don't have to make all these exhagerations on how complex traditional brewing actually is to try and sell your ideas.

Anyway I'am quite happy to bow out of this arguement and be wrong, don't really care.

Cheers Jayse ,It was all really getting out of hand anyway.You have said your piece and im sure every body will repect that.We will all go on brewing how we want to brew and be happy. :beerbang: Gryphon brewing

 

[PistolPatch]

Last night I thought I'd have to write another long reply to jayse's post but let's face it, all I'd be doing is repeating what has already been clearly and logically said. I'll leave it to the readers here to work out both what is sensible and whether the intentions of the writers here have been productive or just plain interruptive. To get a better idea of the latter, you'll have to read the BIAB bling thread. It's pretty clear there.

 

[Fents]

THIS SPACE FOR SALE - ADVERTISE HERE AND GET SEEN BY EVERYONE

PM PRICE!

:lol:

 

[PistolPatch]

You idiot Fents - lol!

Hey you still haven't explained the two meanings of spot ya? Hanging to know.

Spot!

 

[Fents]

did you not check that spot link?

If i say "spot ya" it means im driving the hot knives!

 

[PistolPatch]

Ah, now I get it Fents! I totally missed the link as I read the post in email form.

So, 'spot ya'is a friendly term in more ways than one - lol. What an educational thread this is!

 

[PistolPatch]

Guess what? This is my last post to AHB!

Ive been contemplating this for a while as some of you know but now is the time.

The Reasoning

It seems as though my writing style has begun to attract a few but very unproductive people lol! When I present facts, these people will side-step the facts and call me fanatical or turn an innocent intention into something negative. The last two threads I have started on AHB have quickly ended up as a disgrace. In fact my last thread, started off after a few beers, was something intended to be nice but quickly labelled as strange. This of course prevented anyone from actually following with the thread intention without risk of ridicule. No one here is going to want to whack in any BIAB bling ideas for the same reason. So, if my posts lead so quickly into an unproductive disarray, it is simply pointless to post and in fact, harmful to innocent others and to innocent ideas. For example, whilst informed readers here can easily sort out sense and nonsense, newer troops will only get bewildered by illogical and unproductive posts or threads.

The Great Troops on AHB

The people above are few. The overwhelming majority of brewers on AHB are truly tops and Im lucky that Ill be able to continue to communicate and have beers with many of these guys either here or in other states a real pleasure. Im also looking forward to maintaining my communications and having beers with many of you from this thread. You couldnt ask for a thread with nicer people great humour, great sense and great contributors. Some of the BIAB posts on AHB have truly amazed me several in the last few days alone in fact.

A Couple of Things I Can Do

I thought I might be able to still contribute here and elsewhere on AHB in a productive way by doing the following things...

1. In the unlikely event that I have any good ideas, Ill convey them to someone here and ask them to pass them on if they think they have merit.
2. Ill do a quick-re-write of one section of the BIAB Booklet to get rid of the escalator mash error. If anyone wants to re-write or add parts to the booklet, just let me know and Ill re-post your revised .pdf and mention your changes in Post #1 of this thread.
3. If anyone wants anything changed or added to the first 4 posts of the thread, once again, let me know.
4. BIAB Competitions I have already two great blokes here that are going to help me out with getting some beers into competitions. Ill keep a few people here informed on how this goes and they can pass any news on.
5. Im still happy to answer the questions I sometimes get sent via PMs and if I see that someone has a question that I think I can help with then Ill send them a PM as well.

Im looking forward to being further educated by both the traditional and BIAB brewers who contribute so well to this thread and elsewhere on AHB. I find so much of the information truly fascinating.

So thanks a heap guys and happy brewing to you,
Pat

P.S. The real reason why I cant post anymore is that I have a new girlfriend. Heres a happy snap for you

 

[LovesToBrew]

whooaaa dude, you're out there!

 

[matti]

I don't blame you, Pat.
She looks luvely hehehehe

 

[Hashie]

Sorry to see it come to this. All the best Pat.

I can say that it was your idea of BIAB that got me into AG, I'd still be doing K&K otherwise.

Sorry that you feel the way you do, however, having read the threads, I can understand.

Cheers Hashie

 

[Doogiechap]

You'll be missed bloke !
Your contribution has been appreciated by many ! Much better beer has been brewed thanks to you !
Good to hear you will continue lurking and helping .
A sad end to this chapter of AHB .
Doug

 

[big d]

Oh well if Pats off AHB then i guess the get together at his place is cancelled.Looks like i will never get to meet him.

Cheers
Big D

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Oh well if Pats off AHB then i guess the get together at his place is cancelled.Looks like i will never get to meet him.

Cheers
Big D

Leave it out .The guys not dead :beerbang: Fun in the sun at Freo.