A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

[Darren]

Dunno about tannins and unconverted starch making anything crystal clear.... and even if it is it may well taste horrible.

Might not need a bag... but how am I going to separate the grains out post boil?? I shall probably use a colander lined with a filter cloth... for which I will just use my "bag" I suppose a colander and a bit of cheesecloth is easier than a bag... but not a lot. I dont see it as a huge advantage... marginal at best.

But... rather than conject, I shall give it a go. Not gonna get scientific and do controls, calibration and all that guff, But I will split the wort into two halves... same mash. half boiled with half the grain, half normally (BIAB) lautered. Then I will assemble a tasting panel and we will do some triangles.

Fair ?? Not gonna happen in the next week or so though, I've brewed twice this week already and have neither the motivation nor the fermentors to brew again very soon.

Thirsty

Thirsty,

Did not see this post. Go for it. Would probably be easier to drill a hole in you pot and attach a conventional "filter" though.

cheers

Darren

 

[Darren]

Conventional filter would be a ring of copper with holes cut into it or an "easy hooker". You could simply remove the "filter" when the pot is a boiler!

Have I missed something?

cheers

Darren

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Conventional filter would be a ring of copper with holes cut into it or an "easy hooker". You could simply remove the "filter" when the pot is a boiler!

Have I missed something?

cheers

Darren

All, Darren and I are continuing something that started in the BIAB Bling thread. Darren is suggesting that the Bag part of BIAB is actually unnecessary, I'm trying to work out what he means.

So, you mash in you kettle/mashtun with whatever you decide to use as a wort filter(manifold, easy hooker etc), Then you lauter out of the kettle into presumably your fermentor? Then you clean the mash out of your kettle, then remove the filter, then pour the wort back into the kettle, then whack on your heat ?? Yes??

That would undoubtedly work. It would also solve the issue of any excessive particulate or proteins making it from the mash to the kettle.

It also sounds like a monumental pain in the bum.. I would be halfway through my boil using a bag, before I got my now half cold wort back into the kettle and on the heat with your idea. Its got its merits... but I'd think I'd rather stick with the bag. They aren't exactly hard to make or use. Still options are good and this is another one to consider.

If it turns out that you cant make beers that are stable in the long term with BIAB.. then maybe if I was making a beer that I knew I was going to keep around for a long time, maybe I would go to the extra trouble. But I think I'll wait to try a few aged BIABs before I swap methods. At this point the long term instability thing is only a speculation. Have to wait and see.

Thanks for the idea. I appreciate it.

Thirsty

PS... Unless you were actually still talking about the idea of boiling the grains and all.. in which case it make perfect sense.

 

[The King of Spain]

Oh Thirsty! I'm so happy I started the BIAB Bling thread

Thanks for your sensible and courageous posts there mate. Your fingers must be worn out!

Here's my response as to some reasons why people should think twice before they advise that a mash tun system is easier, just as cheap or better than BIAB.

1. All of Thirsty's Reasons above and the many others that have been written about elsewhere in this thread or the forum.
2. Building a Mash Tun is not as easy as people make out for many novice brewers unless they have someone to help them along. Understanding the principles of a mash tun can be a very confusing, contradictory subject to learn about. It is often expensive as well. As Thirsty said, not many people stay thrilled with the bucket in bucket system and so you need an esky, a tap mechanism and a manifold. THe manifold is one area that gets very confusing due to the high amount of conflicting advice.
3. Mash Tun Temperature: To correct the temp in a mash tun system requires either very expensive pumping and heating mechanisms, an immersion element or cheapest of all, adding hotter water which can be a tricky thing to judge. With BIAB, you just add some flame for a minute or so and therefore can easily keep things accurate at zero expense.
4. Tiers or Levels: This is a major factor that no proponent of mash tuns has mentioned in the bling thread. It is VERY major. Jayse's idea of just having a 2 vessel system and using the fermenter to fill the gaps, ignores just how big those gaps are. How do you transfer the hot water from your kettle into the HLT? How do you transfer the mash from HLT to fermenter? How do you transfer wort from fermenter into the kettle to be boiled? You'll certainly want at least silicone hosing but you are now looking at 5 syphonings per brew instead of just one as you get with BIAB. THat's a MAJOR gaps. You are also going to either have to lift the vessel to a height that can be syphoned or create or build 3 levels on which to brew on unless you want to buy a pump. Taps and stands cost money. The end result tis still going to be a more complex and harder to operate system.
5. Sparging Knowledge: Once again this is a major hurdle for the novice brewer. The advice out there is often poor and/or conflicting. A novice even before getting their head around the spargiing process has to understand the difference between fly and batch-sparging and then know enough about them to be able to work out if people's advice refers to batch or fly.

Of course I could write a lot more and I and many others have written more before. But surely what Thirsty has written and the above though are enough to prevent the thinking brewer from writing some of the things that have been written in the bling thread?

Going to write some more here now but as it is a few different subjects, I'll put it in a separate post.

Spot,
Pat

Pat,

Thanks mate for getting me going (with BIAB) :super: , but seriously mate, my mash tun took about 20min to make. With a heads up on batch sparging from other more experienced members I am now getting 80% (every time) and very little trub. The beer, well its never been better....

 

[Darren]

All, Darren and I are continuing something that started in the BIAB Bling thread. Darren is suggesting that the Bag part of BIAB is actually unnecessary, I'm trying to work out what he means.

So, you mash in you kettle/mashtun with whatever you decide to use as a wort filter(manifold, easy hooker etc), Then you lauter out of the kettle into presumably your fermentor? Then you clean the mash out of your kettle, then remove the filter, then pour the wort back into the kettle, then whack on your heat ?? Yes??

That would undoubtedly work. It would also solve the issue of any excessive particulate or proteins making it from the mash to the kettle.

It also sounds like a monumental pain in the bum.. I would be halfway through my boil using a bag, before I got my now half cold wort back into the kettle and on the heat with your idea. Its got its merits... but I'd think I'd rather stick with the bag. They aren't exactly hard to make or use. Still options are good and this is another one to consider.

If it turns out that you cant make beers that are stable in the long term with BIAB.. then maybe if I was making a beer that I knew I was going to keep around for a long time, maybe I would go to the extra trouble. But I think I'll wait to try a few aged BIABs before I swap methods. At this point the long term instability thing is only a speculation. Have to wait and see.

Thanks for the idea. I appreciate it.

Thirsty

PS... Unless you were actually still talking about the idea of boiling the grains and all.. in which case it make perfect sense.

Thirsty,

I am still talking about both ideas. The small amount of dicking around collecting into a bucket then cleaning the mash out of the boiler maybe worth it in the long run if unconverted stach into the boil is going to be a problem.

If unconverted starch in the boiler is not a problem, then why not boil the whole damn lot and forget the bag.

As you rightly wrote earlier, decoctions are boiled (mainly grain too) with no problems associated with astringency.

BTW, I am not trying to diss the BIAB idea, it just seems to me anyhow, to not make AG brewing any easier than more conventional methods.

cheers

Darren

 

[apd]

...
So, you mash in you kettle/mashtun with whatever you decide to use as a wort filter(manifold, easy hooker etc), Then you lauter out of the kettle into presumably your fermentor? Then you clean the mash out of your kettle, then remove the filter, then pour the wort back into the kettle, then whack on your heat ?? Yes??
...
It also sounds like a monumental pain in the bum.. I would be halfway through my boil using a bag, before I got my now half cold wort back into the kettle and on the heat with your idea. Its got its merits... but I'd think I'd rather stick with the bag. They aren't exactly hard to make or use. Still options are good and this is another one to consider.

Thirsty,

I've done exactly what you describe and yes, it is a pain in the bum. My filter was a stainless steel scrubby jammed on the end of my racking cane. I syphoned to my fermentor, then back into my cleaned out mash tun/kettle.

I use a bag now.

Andrew

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Thirsty,

I am still talking about both ideas. The small amount of dicking around collecting into a bucket then cleaning the mash out of the boiler maybe worth it in the long run if unconverted stach into the boil is going to be a problem.

If unconverted starch in the boiler is not a problem, then why not boil the whole damn lot and forget the bag.

As you rightly wrote earlier, decoctions are boiled (mainly grain too) with no problems associated with astringency.

BTW, I am not trying to diss the BIAB idea, it just seems to me anyhow, to not make AG brewing any easier than more conventional methods.

cheers

Darren

Yeah.. but having actually done it both ways... it does. Considerably.

BTW... nobody is saying that BIAB lets unconverted starch through into the kettle. just that it maybe lets a little more fine particulate through. Not necessarily unconverted starch. I have performed iodine tests on the kettle wort, and there is nothing that is so unconverted that it registers a colour change in the iodine.

The difference in particulate in a BIAB wort to a fairly standard homebrew wort, is probably not really any greater than the difference between say a herms or rims wort, and someone who just volaufs a few litres till there aren't any chunks.

Its not like there is any particularly solid or undebatable reasons why clear wort is better than cloudy wort... So BIAB wort is well and truly at the cloudy end of the scale... that might mean nothing at all.

Still your idea solves the problem if it turns out to exist ;and then I would probably go to the trouble if I was making a big beer for aging.

We'll just have to monitor the quality of the beers as we get to the point where there are actually some BIAB beers with a bit of age on them. Hopefully it just wont be an issue, like so many other things that were going to mean that BIAB could never work...

Of course, I'm still going to give that whole boiling everything brew a go... why the hell not?

Thirsty

PS - I just remembered. I think that one of the reasons that you can boil the bejeezus out of a decoction without leeching too many tannins, is because you are using a "thick" portion. I'm pretty sure that the large ratio of grain to liquid in the decoction portion buffers the ph and stops tannin extraction. That might not be the case with boiling everything and the very thin L:G ratio involved. We'll see.

 

[pint of lager]

45 pages of posts, you BIAB folk have been busy.

I have a couple of thoughts for your method. Sorry, I am not reading the whole lot to see if they have been addressed.

1. Temperature control.

Pat discussed this a bit in the first post. Temperature of the mash is extremely important. With the high emzyme malts we have these days, it is critical that the strike temp is right. Spending too long at the wrong temperature allows different enzymes to work on the mash and changes the profile of the mash. Because the modern malts have high diastic powers (lots of enzymes) much of their work happens in the first 20 minutes of mashing.

With BIAB, uniform stirring of the mash would be harder with a bag in the way, leading to hot and cold spots. Also, because the pot is not insulated, much of the heat will be lost. The brewer will have to spend most of the mashtime, trying to heat the bottom of the pot and try and stir that heat uniformly throughout the mash.

Mashing in an insulated vessel is much easier.

2. Efficiency.

BIAB is inefficient. With a better sparge, you will end up doing every 4th-5th brew for free.

3. Wort profile.

With an efficient sparge, towards the end of the runnings, the profile changes towards the longer chain sachaarides (malt sugars) These give your brew body. Without an efficient sparge, these will be missing in BIAB.

4. Haze and brew stability.

One of the aims at every step of beer production is to reduce hazes. These affect the long term stability of the packaged and finished beer. Without recirculating the wort, BIAB suffers from excess gunk in the boil. This means less wort into the fermenter and the chance of hazes.

Many of these factors are hard to quantify. With new brewers, some of them do not really matter. But ignoring them may lead to problems.

The enthusiasm and keenness of the BIAB crowd does them proud. But burying your head in the sand ignoring other methods of brewing is not doing justice to your beers or your own skills.

A couple of other methods to try out:

Bucket in bucket. Two 20 litre buckets (large white ones)nested one inside the other. The bottom bucket is fitted with a tap (from the homebrew shop, snap tap with backing nut), the inner bucket has the base drilled with lots of holes to form a false bottom. Wrap the lot in insulation, recycled bubblewrap or old blankets.

Esky with braid. Fit esky with braid for manifold.

If you have a boiler, fit a tap to it and make running off easier.

BIAB is only one of many ways to get into ag brewing. Whichever way you select, depends on your skill with a set of pliers, drill or sewing needle.

 

[Adzmax]

My Italian burner and 60lt Robinox pot have arrived. I've just order the ingredients to make Ross's Summer Ale as my first AG brew Should be good I hope!

 

[Hashie]

I am consistently getting 80% efficiency with BIAB.

Haze and stability can be addressed by adding specialty grains at mash out.

My keggle is insulated once the flame is turned off with a camping mat and maintains a constant 66C for a 1 hour mash. Followed by a constant 77C for a 30 minute mash out. No need to heat while mashing.

Less wort in the fermenter due to trub, I'll take your word for it. But also factor in less wort lost to grain.

I wouldn't, for 1 minute, consider criticising another brewers chosen method, unless I had first hand experience and knowledge of their process. So I am mystified why some find BIAB or single vessel brewing to be not worthy of making beer.

 

[Stuster]

3. Wort profile.

With an efficient sparge, towards the end of the runnings, the profile changes towards the longer chain sachaarides (malt sugars) These give your brew body. Without an efficient sparge, these will be missing in BIAB.

Hmm. Not a BIABer as you know, PoL, but this one got me thinking. Can this really be right? No-sparge brewing produces a maltier beer with more body according to Fix and many others. Parti-gyle beers - first runnings beers were (are) the best beers. My experience with parti-gyle beers is that the first runnings beers seem to have more body than a 'normal' beer of similar gravity. :unsure:

 

[lucas]

I see thirsty and spills are doing a BIAB demo at grain and grape in the coming month. Good stuff! should break the image usually conceived from the G&G demos that you need a $3K herms setup to brew allgrain beers

 

[jendres]

Grain and Grape BIAB demo on 22nd Sept. From their newsletter:

22nd September

Breaking all the rules demo of BIAB (Brew in a bag) and No Chill by our Dan Walker & Geoff Hammond.

 

[bugwan]

Damn, I've finally gotten back to my PC and thought I'd post this info (about G&G sessions) and was thoroughly beaten!

Good on Thirsty and Spills for doing this. I have to say, Grain and Grape have some great programs now - brew demos every weekend, plus new sessions like yeast handling/starters, how to keg etc. Great stuff!

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

45 pages of posts, you BIAB folk have been busy.

I have a couple of thoughts for your method. Sorry, I am not reading the whole lot to see if they have been addressed.

Sorry, but you should have. It would have saved you typing your post.

1. Temperature control.

Pat discussed this a bit in the first post. Temperature of the mash is extremely important. With the high emzyme malts we have these days, it is critical that the strike temp is right. Spending too long at the wrong temperature allows different enzymes to work on the mash and changes the profile of the mash. Because the modern malts have high diastic powers (lots of enzymes) much of their work happens in the first 20 minutes of mashing.

With BIAB, uniform stirring of the mash would be harder with a bag in the way, leading to hot and cold spots. Also, because the pot is not insulated, much of the heat will be lost. The brewer will have to spend most of the mashtime, trying to heat the bottom of the pot and try and stir that heat uniformly throughout the mash.

Mashing in an insulated vessel is much easier.

With a little practice, as it would using any method, it is possible to hit your target strike and mash temps consistently every time. I do.

I do not find the bag gets in the way when I mash in a bag - it just doesn't happen. When I brew in my big setup outside, I insulate the boiler using cardboard and an old camping mat and can just squirt a bit of energy into it every 30 minutes or so on a cold day. On my small stove-top setup I have a direct-heated mash tun which allows me to add as many steps as I want/need/desire.

Your comment on ease is just bluster.

2. Efficiency.

BIAB is inefficient. With a better sparge, you will end up doing every 4th-5th brew for free.

Sorry, but this is ignorant bluster. It's easy to get 75-80% brewhouse efficiency without sparge and approaching 90% with a simple dunk sparge using a kitchen pot. And that is only if you care about such things. It was pointed out to me last week that people like Jamil Zainachef usually quote lower than 70% in their published recipes as they focus on quality of the finished product more than extracting every last sugar molecule.

3. Wort profile.

With an efficient sparge, towards the end of the runnings, the profile changes towards the longer chain sachaarides (malt sugars) These give your brew body. Without an efficient sparge, these will be missing in BIAB.

Stuster got it right when he stated that people who write books on the subject disagree with you.

4. Haze and brew stability.

One of the aims at every step of beer production is to reduce hazes. These affect the long term stability of the packaged and finished beer. Without recirculating the wort, BIAB suffers from excess gunk in the boil. This means less wort into the fermenter and the chance of hazes.

I think the jury is still out on this one. I wouldn't be stating anything as fact in this area yet.

But burying your head in the sand ignoring other methods of brewing is not doing justice to your beers or your own skills.

Finally, something we agree on.

I don't understand why there is such a negative attitude towards this wort-preparation process. If you gave something a shot and decided you didn't like the process or the outcome, that is one thing. But the bombastic ignorance some people are displaying here is truly astounding.

I like the BIAB process. I like the beers I make - as do others who drink them. I believe that a good brewer could make good beer in a plastic bucket if they were of a mind to do so. If they did, I would wish them well rather than tell them they got it all wrong.

 

[Steve]

I like the BIAB process. I like the beers I make - as do others who drink them. I believe that a good brewer could make good beer in a plastic bucket if they were of a mind to do so. If they did, I would wish them well rather than tell them they got it all wrong.

here bloody here :beer:
Cheers
Steve

 

[MVZOOM]

1. Temperature control.

Pat discussed this a bit in the first post. Temperature of the mash is extremely important. With the high emzyme malts we have these days, it is critical that the strike temp is right. Spending too long at the wrong temperature allows different enzymes to work on the mash and changes the profile of the mash. Because the modern malts have high diastic powers (lots of enzymes) much of their work happens in the first 20 minutes of mashing.

With BIAB, uniform stirring of the mash would be harder with a bag in the way, leading to hot and cold spots. Also, because the pot is not insulated, much of the heat will be lost. The brewer will have to spend most of the mashtime, trying to heat the bottom of the pot and try and stir that heat uniformly throughout the mash.

Mashing in an insulated vessel is much easier.

My BIAB 'Mash Tun' is insulated and probed with a long stemmed thermo at regular times during the mash. I get about .7degC loss over 60min. Also, due to the volume of mash water, it's a lot easier to stir the mash, thereby decreasing the chance of hot / cold spots and the grain clumping together.

2. Efficiency.

BIAB is inefficient. With a better sparge, you will end up doing every 4th-5th brew for free.

Last brew I just achieved 1052 OG at 23L from 5KG of grain. Can't be arsed working that out, but it's not bad. From what I understand, is as good, if not better than normal sparging, especially for a beginner such as myself.

3. Wort profile.

With an efficient sparge, towards the end of the runnings, the profile changes towards the longer chain sachaarides (malt sugars) These give your brew body. Without an efficient sparge, these will be missing in BIAB.

I think this is adressed as above, it's a fairly efficient sparging method, no?

4. Haze and brew stability.

One of the aims at every step of beer production is to reduce hazes. These affect the long term stability of the packaged and finished beer. Without recirculating the wort, BIAB suffers from excess gunk in the boil. This means less wort into the fermenter and the chance of hazes.

I can't really comment too hard on these ones. Personally, the brews I have done via my mash tun and my BIAB have both been similar in terms of clarity. Long term stability - no idea, you may be right here. I no chill as well, so am probably running the gauntlet of insufferable pain when I get thrown to the Brewers Pergatory.

The enthusiasm and keenness of the BIAB crowd does them proud. But burying your head in the sand ignoring other methods of brewing is not doing justice to your beers or your own skills.

I could also re-turn this sentance: The enthusiasm and keenness of the traditional mashing crowd does them proud. But burying your head in the sand ignoring other methods of brewing is not doing justice to your beers or your own skills.

I already have a mash tun, which I'll be fitting a larger braid on this weekend, so I can properly populate my brewstand. I intend to move forward using both methods in future - so it's all good.

Cheers - Mike

 

[eric8]

1. Temperature control.

Pat discussed this a bit in the first post. Temperature of the mash is extremely important. With the high emzyme malts we have these days, it is critical that the strike temp is right. Spending too long at the wrong temperature allows different enzymes to work on the mash and changes the profile of the mash. Because the modern malts have high diastic powers (lots of enzymes) much of their work happens in the first 20 minutes of mashing.

With BIAB, uniform stirring of the mash would be harder with a bag in the way, leading to hot and cold spots. Also, because the pot is not insulated, much of the heat will be lost. The brewer will have to spend most of the mashtime, trying to heat the bottom of the pot and try and stir that heat uniformly throughout the mash.

Mashing in an insulated vessel is much easier.

The first BIAB I did I only lost about a degree to 1.5, and my keggle is not insulated. So not too bad if you ask me.
By the way, I think the beer tasted FANTASTIC.
eric

 

[Kingy]

I had a problem with my BIAB and i found out what it was. Since ive started doing AG ive been drinking excessively because it tasted so good and after getting pissed everynight for a few months it started to taste, well,average. Due to excessive consumption i was over it. (also being a tree lopper i was getting to heavy to pull my beer gut up a tree)

Ive since cut back a fair bit, and the beer tastes awesome again (and im a lot lighter). I cant believe i make this beer :lol:

Im back to enjoying making beer instead of it being a chore and have myself a few more kegs and taps so the beer ages more and i have more variety on tap.

My beer is a lot better than beers from the local bottlo (not that i go there anymore)

My aluminium pot loses 2 degrees maximum over 90 mins,there fore i have it on low for a few minutes at about 45 mins to keep it steady. And thats in winter with the shed wide open and in the blue mountains.
So in summer it wont be a problem (havent brewed Ag in summer yet) next winter ill use my heavy tramping mat (too heavy to hike with) to keep it at a more stable temp.

im sure that will will fix my 2 degree temp variation.


Efficency is through the roof.

I no chill and beer is as clear as can be in the kegs (havent tasted any bottled brews yet)

And most of all i love my beer and so do others.

Why would i spend the extra $$$ and time on another method when im happy doing what im doing now.Its fast and simple and produces great beer. I know there are people with 3 vessel systems who look down on us and think "they dont know what what there missing out on" or " they are doing it the wrong way" but honestly have you tried a beer done by this method.

also, i could spend the extra $$$ on the 3 vessel system and my beer will be the same. Wouldnt i be farked off then

further down the track i will have a full brewery with a mash tun (for the bling factor),but ATM this method of brewing is really suiting my hectic lifestlye to a T

My beer is coming out exeptionally well and im very proud to make beer that is extremely drinkable, even if i am "cheating" or "doing it the wrong way" as others may say.

Im happy and i know a lot of others who use this method are happy as well. And are enjoying there beers right now.

cheers,kingy

P.s who cares how its brewed as long as it tastes good, I mean thats why we do isnt it :huh: not to have a better set up or claim to brew better beer than anybody else

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I reckon you've hit the nail on the head, Kingy. It's kind of strange that home/craft brewers have so much in common and yet on discussion forums like this one, it is the differences that tend to get focussed on.

K&K / Extract versus All Grain.
Chillers versus Not.
Fly-spargers versus Batch-spargers.
Everyone versus BIAB
etc.

And yet, we all do it for pretty much the same reason - to get pissed cheap so we can drink beer that is more to our taste than can be purchased at the local, or because we like the process, or because we get to wave power tools around while drinking beer under the guise of creating a brew sculpture (or is that just me?).

We tend to be a fairly expressive and opinionated bunch - just look at what happens when someone mentions the price/quality/colour/packaging of the megabreweries' product. We can hide behind our nicknames and Internet connections. If we post late enough at night, we can blame our handiwork.

I see flame wars on the Intraweb thingy all the time. (For the record, I don't like the viral nature of the GPL. ) Each time I am about to come up with a theory, something comes along and shows me that I don't understand.

I do understand that we all enjoy making good beer (and that this post is off-topic, but I am about to have a beer.)