A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

[Thirsty Boy]

Ive done a few BIAB's and it is a starting point to venture into AG. All my beers have shat all over all the k+kbeers and extract brews bah 1 ive done. But i do find that the beers dont have enough body. It almost gets there but not quite. i also feel like i am cheating,but it still is exceptionally good beer.

I think going down the traditional way of brewing path i will have more control over my beer,i will actually own a proper brewery (bling), and im sure the beer will be better again. As its the next step up that im going to take.

I dont care how long it takes or how much washing up i have to do as that dont bother me. Therez a lot more information out there on the traditional way and this will help me a great deal.

Thats just how i see it and taste it.

But for know i keep BIAB'in untill i decide to lash out and take the next step.

cheers kingy

I dunno Kingy,

I agree with a fair few of your points there, and certainly aren't going to discourage you from brewing in whatever way you want.

But I'm not sure that you are actually going to find any significantly greater level of control nor of quality, if you change from BIAB to a mashtun setup. I brew both ways and just aren't finding that there really are insoluable deficiencies in either technique.

In your specific case, what I suspect (dont know for certain of course) is that you could certainly solve your lack of body problem from within the BIAB method. I certainly dont have a problem with lack of body in BIAB brews, and neither do the BIABs I have tasted from other brewers, so its not BIAB per se that is causing the issue. Its just an issue in your brewing that you need to work out how to fix. Exactly the same thing might happen to you if you were brewing on a completely traditional set-up.

I think that one of the problems with BIAB being perceived as a temporary phase of an AG brewer's career, is the fact that it just doesn't cost enough time and or effort to do. As you said, people feel a bit like they are cheating.

And because its sort of a new technique, when people encounter an issue, its far to easy to blame it on the BIAB and decide to switch... whereas if you had just spent a few hundred dollars and a lot of hours assembling a trad set-up. Your thoughts would be more likely to go along the lines of "well, I know that this is able to be made to work, so I better work out what I am doing wrong and fix it..." plus there is all the time and money that its cost you, to give you motivation to keep on trying rather than toss it all in the nearest dumpmaster.

I know this feeling all too well. I have the said "several hundred dollars" worth of 3 vessel system... and every time I do a BIAB, I look over at my mashtun etc and wonder why the hell it is, that the next time I do a full batch of beer I will be doing it on the the 3 vessel. I know for a fact that its just because I cant stand the thought of all the time, effort and money I sank into the bloody thing having been a waste...

If the bags cost $200.00 and you had to make the same level of blind commitment to set up a BIAB rig as you do to set up a traditional rig, I'm guessing that there would be at least one or two people who have currently given up BIAB, that would have kept on experimenting till they worked out the things that made them swap in the first place.

Of course in your case Kingy, you have listed a couple of "other" perfectly valid reason for wanting to change. As I said I'm certainly not going to try to talk you out of it. I just think that you might be expecting some things that you either aren't going to get.. or that you could have gotten anyway with the system you already have and a bit more experience.

However, if a while down the track you do decide to swap from BIAB to a 3 vessel... drop me a note, I may well have a perfectly serviceable HERMS up for sale by then.

Cheers

Thirsty

 

[PistolPatch]

OMG! I"ve just had an email from Bunyip thet he has ordered not only a false bottom but a March Pump as well!!!!! LOL!!!

The Northern Bunyip wil not fail us I know.

Looking forward to the pics Ned.

Spot ya,
Pat

 

[FNQ Bunyip]

Hey Pat better read the email again Mate!!!

The March pump will be a few weeks /months away yet.. LOL

The pics will be worth the wait though as I have some interesting ideas that i'mm working on..


Thanks for your post Thirsty, I think you might of hit a few points on the head. A diferant system is still not going to make better beer if your a shit brewer too start with...

My wanting to build a traditional system/ brewery is not because of any problems or percived problems with my beers both Brew Wench and I can't get enough.
Its more a case of wanting to build a BREWERY not just a beer maker..

Sure the kettle and maccona make coffee but hell one of them expreesso machines sure looks& sounds good but how often do you find that the pimpley faced prick behind the counter can't drive it anyway and the maccona would of been just as good..

If it wasen't for BIAB I would still be thinking about it and drinking K+K . I belive that I will probly still brew up a few BIAB to keep stocks up but am looking forward to a full on stuck sparge, missed mash temp and what ever else can go wrong.. LOL

Settle down Pat I'm not dumping you mate..

edit: The FB is here ..LOL
Cheers Ned

 

[Kingy]

Never had anyone complain of my beer and theyd much prefer to drink my beer than most beer from the bottleshops. The main reason for me is to have a "brewery" as well. The body problem aint a big issue well im not even sure that the body in the beers ive made is a problem.My beers dont taste like water so im not sure. My beers taste great. Maybe i need some more hops added tho. Im still learning so im not fussed. And i will always be learning.
Dont know any other brewers to taste my beer either.

I dont like lagers and thats all ive been able to brew with the weather so far.

Looking forward to trying some ales soon.

Dont get me wrong BIAB is a great thing and they do taste great.But i think if im wanting to do a lot of differant styles with differant mash shedules the traditional way is the go.

And yeah owning a 3 vessel system will make my beer taste mentally better. And it will look better in the shed.(bling) money aint a problem either.

cheers
kingy

 

[jimmysuperlative]

I'm convinced that BIAB produces beer of quality ...my mates (and my inability to stop at just one) tell me so!
I can understand how the "bling factor" would influence many a brewers decision to "upgrade" to a 3-vessel/traditional setup.
...and it makes it easier to follow the conversation when brewers use terms and refer to methods (particularly for new brewers).

However, I have assembled the necessary gear ...stainless vessels, burner, plumbing etc ...and could probably give traditional/regular AG brewing a burl tomorrow!
...BUT, I haven't!!! And the bottom line is that BIAB is too easy! :beerbang:
Less gear, less steps, less time, less space etc... GREAT BEER!!!! why would I pollute the process with extra gear/time/space/etc ?

The only reason I can see for ramping up my system (and it's a very real argument for me) is batch size.
...And I know there are BIAB brewers out there who have already overcome this problem ...so maybe I'll never fire up a 3-vessel AG brew, but I do admit it still feels good to know its all there if I ever decide to!

So, boys and girls, tell us how you double batch BIAB ...or DBBIAB for short :lol:

 

[PistolPatch]

I know I've missed a couple of comments/questions that need replying above on taste tests and comps but I'll do that tomorrow. (Glad to hear you're not dumoping me though Ned and am posting my beers to you tomorrow as I have the day off )

Good to hear from you jummy :super:

The double-batching is easy. The last brews Harry did on our equip had around 10 kilos of grain. Normally for a 23 litre brew of that beer I'd add 37lts of water. In this case, we were going for a 42 litre batch so we needed to add around 70 litres to the pot which is a little problem as our kettles are 70 litres.

Harry threw in about 55litres I think to mash in with and then just added the exttra water needed during the boil. All worked out OK.

The bag is certainly strong enough to hold the 10kilos of grain and be lifted. Of course, in this case you really need the skyhook. We have the skyhook with a single pulley and a cleat so that the bag can be gradually pulled up and drained. This works very well.

Great to hear you're enjoying the beers mate. Looks like we'll have to get some in the comps but more on that tomorrow.

Spot ya Jimmy and love your post,
Pat

 

[Darren]

Pat and other BIAB converts,

I am wondering if you actually need to remove the grain at all?

Anyone tried boiling all the mash and fermenting?

Might end up a brilliantly clear, full bodied beer.


Worth a try if anyone is game.


cheers

Darren

 

[eric8]

I can understand how the "bling factor" would influence many a brewers decision to "upgrade" to a 3-vessel/traditional setup.

If you want 3 vessels, then why mot just do BIAB in all 3. That way you get your bling and 3 same or different types of beer.
I am thinking of getting another vessel, thats nice and shiny, but only to do more biab in. I agree with Jimmy, it's just so much easier.
Eric

 

[paterson2929]

Being new to this forum I usually just read it for info rather than interact in posts.
When I first got onto this forum I read the posts on AG and it looked all too daunting.
After reading the guide to BIAB I thought Hey, thats doesn't look to hard.
After several hundred dollars worth of gear and seven batches I can safely say I am not doing anything other than BIAB now, the days of K+K are over.
The beer tastes astronomically better. I have since purchased a half kilo of yeast, 100kg of various base grains, 10kg of specialty grains and plenty of hops.
Now I don't have to go the shops anymore and can make beer whenever I want.
I can't see myself going for the traditional method because of

1. Space
2. More money for equipment
3. BIAB produces great results

Having not tasted many other peoples HB's I could be biased, but my beer shits all over
the commercial stuff and I am more than satisfied.
All I want to do now is experiment with recipes.
Thats my 2 cents
Happy Brewing
:beerbang:

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I believe that BIAB can be scaled upwards about as large as is likely in a homebrew environment. The only issue seems to be bag size/strength.

I think the first thing to give way on a normal BIAB bag will be the stitching. Simple solution to the whole bag strength thing is to use a bloddy big colander or cage to support the bag, or have an outer bag of (say) inert plastic shade cloth - the seams of which can be bonded more strongly. Rent a small mobile crane, get your mates around and see how much grain you can lift.

It seems that extraction efficiency will suffer as the gravity of the beer you're making increases. This isn't a BIAB issue, it is an issue common to any brewing method, but it is harder to solve if you constrain yourself to a single vessel and don't want to reach higher gravities through extended boil times. I am addressing this with a second vessel which I am using to 'dunk' sparge, which should give me extraction efficiencies similar to batch sparging (because that is all it is really).

At this point, I might expect someone to chime in with a comment along the lines of "You're just an esky away from proper brewing." Perhaps so, but I *like* brewing this way and I would have a different definition of 'proper'.

Someone else might assert that it is not possible to make as good beer without firm, well-rounded grain-beds ( :blink: ), pumps and a tig-welded brew-frame. I reckon that if you know how to brew, you can make good beer in almost anything that will hold water. I would argue that every fault in my beer can be traced back to a mistake on my part rather than the kit I've used.

Disclaimer: This rant was sponsored by Spotlight, WestFarmers and Kennards...

 

[dan_pilbara]

Looking at doing my first BIAB as my grain bill is starting to get too big for my partial set up. The equipment i have is a 40L and 10L urn. Questions are can i put a weldless thermometer through the side of he big urn or will this pierce the bag? Where is the jury on using a bucket and sparging? I have a small roll of SS mesh could i use this to make the basket or will the mesh size be too large?

Thanks Dan

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Looking at doing my first BIAB as my grain bill is starting to get too big for my partial set up. The equipment i have is a 40L and 10L urn. Questions are can i put a weldless thermometer through the side of he big urn or will this pierce the bag? Where is the jury on using a bucket and sparging? I have a small roll of SS mesh could i use this to make the basket or will the mesh size be too large?

Thanks Dan

I've been struggling for a while with how to do the thermometer thing as you suggest and haven't come up a solution. I expect the probe would foul the bag and possibly poke a hole in it, while giving you the temperature at the probe, which may not be the balance of the mash. For now, I think the manual probe held in the mash as you stir it with your spoon/paddle/potato-masher is the go.

I reckon that for your first brew, keep it simple and don't bother sparging. You won't notice the difference in efficiencies and will have a more enjoyable day.

In my thinking about mesh baskets, they would be in addition to the Swiss Voille to provide structural integrity for very big batches - not instead of it. The current common understanding is that you want to keep as many solids out of your boil as possible (theoretically right down to flour) and a fine mesh as provided by the curtain material does this reasonably well (with the exception of the flour, but now I'm being too pedantic).

HTH...

 

[PistolPatch]

Just to address some of the prior comments on taste tests, comps, side by sides and no-chill...

The First Side by Side Taste Test

Ross mentioned that everyone was pretty well-oiled on the first side by side test. Ross could be forgiven for thinking this as he arrived a t the swap very early to help out and therefore got a head-start on everyone else. In fact though, most of the people that did that test, did it on a clean palate - at least 5 and the rest certainly were not well-oiled. We sort of didn't want anyone that had had too many doing the test. In other words, that test was very valid.

Future Side by Sides

I'm up for doing more side by sides on the condition that someone organises transport to and from my place It's more fun if you can have abeer whilst you brew. The side by side I did with hughman cost me a fortune - well over two hundred dollars. That's a long story and we spent so long crushing grain that we by the time we started brewing, our skills had dropped somewhat. And then, hughman drank all his beer so we couldn't even compare them - lol!!! The one with Doogiechap went really well except for one major flaw that we didn't realise until the end. The water he used was filtered whereas mine wasn't. Anyway, we do boith have some of that kolsch left which we can have a comparison taste of but with the water stuff-up we won't be able to draw any conclusions.

Suffice to say that doing a side by side involves a fair bit from the bloke doing the travelling but if someone can fix that side of things for me then I'll always be prepared to load my gear up.

Good idea Kook on the sending the results off to West Coast or the likes for some triangular tasting. (Hope the new house is going well and hopefully we can do a brew together once you get settled. I reckon hughman should drive me - lol!)

The other alternative for anyone over here to do a side by side is to come to my place where I have access to both traditional and BIAB equip. We could do a brew on each set of equip.

Competitions

OK, I'll whack a few beers in. I'm going to ask Neville from Gryphon Brewing to help me out here as I have no idea on what beers of mine will be to style and how to enter them. He has lots of experience in that area and has done well in comps before. He also has extensive brewing education and experience so this will certainly be of invaluable assistance to me. Hope you can help me out Neville :unsure:

No Chilling

I better expand on my comment on no chilling made last week. When I said it sounds like hard work or whatever, what I meant was that if your aim is to get the beer fermenting asap and you can afford a chiller then this is less work than racking to a cube and then pitching later on. Of course, there are so many variations on no-chill and not all of them involve the cube step. If not, then the work wouldn't be too much. However, I don't know much about the no-chill, no-cube method :blink: so feel free to correct me on this.

And don't worry Fents, it's only poor buggers like me that have nowhere for a skyhook that have to lift the bag out manually. Mind you it takes less than a minute so it's no big deal. There's no way I'd do a double-batch that way though unless I was Grant Kenny!

Have just sent those beers to you Ned and I also have sent Batz a few including that elusive altbier. Looking forward to seeing whether Batz thinks it's right or not.

Spot ya,
Pat

 

[wrightyman]

Looking to get back into AG after 3yrs,This sound like a easy way to begin.Have only read a few postings,Have a few questons if anyone can help.What size bag?Are they easy available.Do you have to sparge?

Wrightyman

 

[Fents]

Love ya work PP, Grant Kenny got nothing on you mate.

Yo Pat, everytime you sign a post (Spot ya, Pat) i spin out...Your not from NZ are you?

Theres a double meaning to Spot Ya i've known for a long time and everytime you post it i have a good chuckle imagining you firing up the stove and hot knifes

Next time the spots are on your PP!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spots

 

[Darren]

PP, I am a bit disappointed that you did not comment on the idea of not using a bag and boiling the whole damn lot. Anyone want to comment on the idea?

cheers

Darren

 

[PistolPatch]

Sorry Darren - I'm slipping . I'm actually running behind on my replies to this thread as a lot of guys have written some excellent stuff in the last few days I reckon.

Though your idea would save pulling the bag out until the kettle is drained which could be an advantage, wouldn't it result in huge astringency problems? From what I understand as soon as you go over 78 degrees you start to extract tannins. If so, this unfortunately stuffs this idea. Oh well!!!

Have really enjoyed reading the posts above. So many great points have been made.

Without looking back through the posts, I think one point that should be emphasised is one that Kingy made. Kingy, from now on I am calling you King Bling!!!

Kingy, you mentioned that, psychologically, your beers will taste better if you brew traditionally. As Thirsty pointed oput, this is probably far truer than you realise now, But, you have doubts and there is nothing that will remove those at this stage. This can be a good thing though...

The first good thing is that you are excited about spending more money on brewing and learning more. You can't beat that. The trick is how to go about it sensibly.

I was chatting to Ned today and he is using the same vessel for HLT, mash tun and kettle, This is the sensible way to go if you are able. Why? Because as Eric says if traditional brewing makes no diffrence, you'll be able to do 3 BIAB brews simultaneously in those vessels without much extra expense - a few burners.

Unless you already have an esky Kingy, you should really consider using a pot as your mash tun. You live in a cold climate most of the year and if you use an esky, your mash temp will drop by at least 3 degrees in a 90 minute mash. The only two ways to correct this are by adding more hot water (which is bloody difficult to get right) or by using an immersion heater. If you us e apot however, you can just add a little more heat with your burner - simple.

I think I read that you have only brewed lagers so far. These to me and many others can be a little dissapointing. Surely you can find somehwere in your house that stays at around 15 degrees at least? If so, do Tony's kolsch or the all amarillo ale. These are lovely beers.

Tony's kolsch beats any lager I have tasted to date and would make a suitable lager 'clone.' My palate likes really well-balance not overly-bitter beers which are harder to brew than 'over the top' beers.

If you have to keep going with lagers for now then raise your mash temp by two degrees on your next one and see how you go.

And, King Bling , I think BIAB still has a lot of bling to be added to it yet. So much so that I'm going to start a new thread on BIAB Bling Ideas. Once written. Here it is!

Looking forward to a beer in the Blue Mountains with your Kingy whether it be traditional or BIAB.

Spot ya,
Pat

P.S. Fents, I'd forgotten about your post!!! Now WTF is the double meaning to Spot Ya. You have me really worried! I thought it just meant spot ya later or spot ya later on (ron). See you learn something new here every day!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Pat and other BIAB converts,

I am wondering if you actually need to remove the grain at all?

Anyone tried boiling all the mash and fermenting?

Might end up a brilliantly clear, full bodied beer.
Worth a try if anyone is game.
cheers

Darren

Sorry Darren, I would have commented but haven't read this thread for a day or so.

I think that would make it a bit like a wash from whiskey production?? Not sure but dont they boil the grain and all?

And I belive that some of the african "ancient" style beers involved boiling and also fermenting with the grain. Then just drinkning the whole lot straight from the fermentor through a reed and a wad of scruched up plant fibers as a filter.

So it would certainly make beer. Dont know if the boil would extract tannins from the grain... I know that it doesn't particularly when you do a decoction, but I think the ph might change enough throughout a full length boil so that it could be a problem.. or does the ph go the other way during the boil, I forget. I also suspect that there would be starch haze... the last of the starch in the grain bashed into solubility by a lengthy boil, but no enzymes to convert it.

And you'd have to separate your wort from grain eventually, unless you want to ferment with the grain as well, so I suspect that before the boil is an easier place to do it than post boil. Although conducting something akin to a re-circ / lauter step would certainly get rid of any hop/break/trub from your wort.

What the hell... I just did a BIAB, no-boil, partially no-chill nano batch of Berliner weiss that I deliberately infected with lacto bugs..... If I can make something that way off the charts... then I can try a nano batch with the grain still in. I'll do it for the team !!

Care to suggest a style?

Thirsty

 

[PistolPatch]

Oh Thirsty, someone has to do it! I reckon a normal style - a pale ale or something?

Are you seriously prepared top have a crack Thirsty? I would have thought that it would all just be wrong?

Crikey! If it is a possibility this will really have me scratching my head though as yet, I'm not too certain of the advantages :unsure:

Spot!

P.S. And excuse all my melling listakes in my last post. I have a new keyboard that I'm not used to as yet.

 

[Darren]

Thirsty, Pat,

All the tannins and unconverted starch may just make this wort crystal clear

Biggest problem I can see is scorching of the grain.

Pat, the advantage is - You dont need a bag!

Pale ale would be a good style to test.

cheers

Darren