A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

[Finite]

Thirsty,

Thanks for a very good post. It made alot of sence and answered all my questions well.

The use of a fermenter to sparge is a good idea, if what lucas says isnt an issue I might try this for the next batch.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Very interesting Idea but I'd want to hear more about the mircobiological side of things. I'm sure I've read somewhere before that you shouldnt put cracked grain in your fermenter as it contains nasty stuff (lacto-something-or-other?) thats almost impossible to kill without a good boil. I think in context the thread was saying dont use your fermenter to catch whats coming out of your grain mill because you wont be able to use it as a fermenter again, but I'm not sure I'd be putting unboiled wort in a fermenter either.

Good point. Hadn't thought of that. Malt is covered in lacto bugs.

The wort/grain is going to be pretty effectively pasturized after spending an hour at temperatures around 65C and then the water in the fermentor is going to be at 78ish when you dunk in your grains, and with a good sanitise while the wort was boiling, I dont think it would be too much of a problem.... but then again it might.

I'm seriously thinking about doing exactly what you plan to do with your mash tun. Combining the lautering ease of the bag with my 3 vessle system. I have an easy hooker set up at the moment and it works just fine, but I suspect the bag will work better!

For your brew, instead of replacing the tap, as a temp solution you could heat a bit of clear pvc tubing in some boiling water and force it through the drain plug of your eski. Then just hold the end of the tube above the liquid level til you ar ready to drain. It should seal up fine, Grain and Grape in Melb sells budget plastic bucket AG rigs that are set up like that and they seem to work perfectly well. Because you are using the bag, you could even just use the eski's drain plug and aim carefully. Might burn yourself though, be careful.

Thanks for the feedback.

Thirsty

 

[The King of Spain]

Thirsty - you could of course use a second boiler. I've have done this using a smaller boiler I used for my single extract brew. I did not bother today after reading your post (more ends to chew on etc - makes sense). I did not hit my gravities but i did forget the calcium suphate... so no conclusion

Cheers

 

[Darren]

Not really sure.... I would guess that 60mins would be enough. But if you are already doing 90mins why change? stick with 90mins to be on the safe side, get a few brews down the track and re-brew a recipe with only a 60min mash (everythig else the same) and see what happens. Tell me what effect it has and then we'll both know

Edit - PS: One more thing about BIAB. People keep saying that squeezing the bag will extract tannins. Why? Why would it? If it does, why aren't they extracted when a commercial Thin Bed Mash Filter physically compresses the grain bed in order to squeeze out residual wort? No answers for this one, just questions.

Hey thirsty,

I saw this topic from the beginning but have missed most of it since then. You are not Pistol patch are you? If not I am sure you would get along well together

The main reason that I am posting is because i also had thoughts years ago about tannins in HB.

Everyone told me that too fine a crush would not work. At the time i was using a kitchen food processor (I now advise NOT to use the one that SWMBO uses as you will probably scratch the plastic, A local second-hand shop is the go for newbie grain "crushing").

With the BIAB method there is little chance of extracting tannins even with a "squeeeze".

There is no sparge with this method but just a thick mash, correct?

Anyone ever underlet the BIAB?

cheers

Darren

 

[Ross]

Anyone ever underlet the BIAB?

cheers

Darren

Darren, BIAB is done in one vessel & the water is preheated in that vessel, so makes underletting a little difficult.

Cheers Ross

 

[Darren]

Darren, BIAB is done in one vessel & the water is preheated in that vessel, so makes underletting a little difficult.

Cheers Ross

Ross,

I see, a bit hit and miss on temperature? I saw some posts on under attenuation?

BIAB could be used for step mashing if you could keep the burner going.

Heat the pot a little low (65C) drop the grain in. Keep the heat on. Raise to temp ot 65-68. Stir. Raise to 75. Pull bag out. Sqeeze once (or drain).

Start the brew

Fermentabilty is the result of initial mash temps (15 mins) rather than the whole 90 mins. Enzymes break down very easily. Once they are dead they cannot be repaired.

You definately should use a good thermometer for this method too. (Glass ones break easily. Digital are around the same price).

What I mean is, if you want fermentable wort (lager/pils) then "dough- in" a lower mash temps (61-65). If you want dextrinous wort (English/Irish ale) aim for 68-73C.


Keep this in mind and I cant see why it would not work!

cheers

Darren

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Ross,

I see, a bit hit and miss on temperature? I saw some posts on under attenuation?

BIAB could be used for step mashing if you could keep the burner going.

Heat the pot a little low (65C) drop the grain in. Keep the heat on. Raise to temp ot 65-68. Stir. Raise to 75. Pull bag out. Sqeeze once (or drain).

Start the brew

Fermentabilty is the result of initial mash temps (15 mins) rather than the whole 90 mins. Enzymes break down very easily. Once they are dead they cannot be repaired.

You definately should use a good thermometer for this method too. (Glass ones break easily. Digital are around the same price).

What I mean is, if you want fermentable wort (lager/pils) then "dough- in" a lower mash temps (61-65). If you want dextrinous wort (English/Irish ale) aim for 68-73C.
Keep this in mind and I cant see why it would not work!

cheers

Darren

Darren,

I wont go into the fermentability/enzymes thing. Its been done to death in this thread big time by myself and others. Not that there is actual agreement, just lots of discussion

BIAB isn't a thick mash, just the opposite, its an ultra thin mash.

Actually, its pretty easy to hit your temps with BIAB because the liquor to grist ratio is so high, the thermal impact of putting your grain into the water is quite minimal. Plug the numbers into the promash strike temp calculator and hit your temps on the head (within 0.5C) has been my experience so far.

Although I havent, I believe that step mashing has been tried out by other BIABers and that you just need to watch yourself if you are using a Nasa Burner because you might melt the bag.

I aint Pistol Patch, but think that you are right, I reckon I would get along with him and look forward to the chance of having a beer with him one of these days.

About the tannins... My main reason for not really believing that tannins would be a problem from either a fine crush, or from squeezing, is that breweries who Thin Bed Mash Filter lautering systems (used in europe quite a bit) finely crush, in fact hammer mill to powder, their grist and ALSO squezze the grain bed pretty damn hard in order to squeeze out wort and minimise volume/weight of spent grain to dispose of. The extraction of tannins wasn't even mentioned as a concern in the text I studied. My guess is that if the ph is OK and the temp isn't too high, you couldn't squeeze the grist hard enough by hand to extract any significant amount of tannins.

Of course, thats just my reasoning. I'd love ot hear from someone who believes otherwise because I really dont understand the whole tannin extraction thing all that well. Dont want to go telling people to squeeze if I'm just full of **** (even though I already have.. oops)

Thirsty

 

[The King of Spain]

I have done 3 brews using Notts. My last one I used US56 with an ale and I did not expect to see an FG as good as Ive got using Notts (between 1008-1010). I did a long mash (as I was occupied with lawns). I finished mowing and realised that I forgot my calcium suphate so added and flamed it up and let it go another hour so total mash was 2.5hours. I was not overly impressed with the SG which was 1042 from memory. The gravity today was 1007. I have calibrated for temperature and have even tested my hydrometer with water at 19C. I've tested twice to for sanity...

Only other thing done different was I used Kopperflock - gives a different dimention to the cold break. Last few brews I had gunk up to the tap after a cold chill. This time I got less than half of that. Don't know if thats it.

Over to better brains then mine for comment. Seems very low from what I have read about US56....

PS beer tastes great. No off flavours at all, you could keg it and drink now.

Edit note - was 3.6KG MO ale and .4KG wheat. I downloading ProMash so better info from here on...

 

[Ross]

Deaves,

Sounds pretty well spot on to me US-56 attenuates very well, especially with a coolish mash. I get from 1085 down to 1010. Is there a problem with the beer? If not, just enjoy it :chug:

cheers Ross

 

[Kai]

About the tannins... My main reason for not really believing that tannins would be a problem from either a fine crush, or from squeezing, is that breweries who Thin Bed Mash Filter lautering systems (used in europe quite a bit) finely crush, in fact hammer mill to powder, their grist and ALSO squezze the grain bed pretty damn hard in order to squeeze out wort and minimise volume/weight of spent grain to dispose of. The extraction of tannins wasn't even mentioned as a concern in the text I studied. My guess is that if the ph is OK and the temp isn't too high, you couldn't squeeze the grist hard enough by hand to extract any significant amount of tannins.

Of course, thats just my reasoning. I'd love ot hear from someone who believes otherwise because I really dont understand the whole tannin extraction thing all that well. Dont want to go telling people to squeeze if I'm just full of **** (even though I already have.. oops)

Thirsty

Ultimately, if you want to squeeze you bag then squeeze away and decide for yourself whether or not it tastes bad. There are many variables in brewing based on scale and equipment and theoretical speculation will only carry so far.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Ultimately, if you want to squeeze you bag then squeeze away and decide for yourself whether or not it tastes bad. There are many variables in brewing based on scale and equipment and theoretical speculation will only carry so far.

Too true. All the speculation in the world doesn't stand up to a bit of experience. I certainly dont have enough BIAB brews under my belt to have accumulated the experience required to back up my reasoning with regard to bag squeezing (that just sounds wrong...) I do however squeeze, or press really, my grain bed in my mash tun for the same set of reasons and haven't had a problem that i have noticed with tannins in my beer.

Actually, thats really one of the reasons I was asking for differing oppinions etc. Trying to work out if I have just been lucky so far

Guess I'll just keep on squeezing/pressing till I either prove myself wrong or convince myself that I'm right.

So much to learn..... So little time to brew

 

[Bijengum]

Very interesting Idea but I'd want to hear more about the mircobiological side of things. I'm sure I've read somewhere before that you shouldnt put cracked grain in your fermenter as it contains nasty stuff (lacto-something-or-other?) thats almost impossible to kill without a good boil. I think in context the thread was saying dont use your fermenter to catch whats coming out of your grain mill because you wont be able to use it as a fermenter again, but I'm not sure I'd be putting unboiled wort in a fermenter either.

unrelated to that though, I'm giving BIAB another shot. I got my kettle and 5 kg of grains on wednesday so I can finally try a full volume boil. I was planning on using a BIAB style bag in my mash tun instead of mucking about with an easy hooker, but I didnt get around to replacing the tap on the cooler yet so I'm just going to do it the BIAB way instead. first AG here I come

How about using your bulk priming container(25l bucket). This would keep any bugs away from your fermenter and would appear to be the same as batch sparging.

 

[dr K]

Well....it took a bit of pot stirring and this is the first time I have revisited this topic since before Christmas 2006 so its not that I have not wanted to reply I have just not read the posts, so excuse this for being a little long and a little quote filled... from post #280

The base line is that you guys are actually on to something very very good, something that could actually make as big a cahnge to home brewing as the Pap a Zap, you are just going the wrong way and unless you open that other eye you will never ever know, will you???
So stop thinking that you are the new wave and look around.

Kynically Yours...
Kurtz

ps.....it will work, just think really hard !!!

to post #282

ahhh who cares about what dr k says, this is just some plonker how hasn't presented a beer for taste testing to any group, and is probably somebody with a personality too unpleasant too even turn up to a brewers' meeting.

people like this obviously post when they've had one too many tooheys news and are up for a fight from the safety of their armchairs.

I am well known to many members of this forum, who may, or of course may not say otherwise but I digress...
#285 from Blake

Dr K. Would you sudgest mashing at a standard water : grain ratio and then topping up with hot water before boiling?

#286 from PostModern

Lads, dough in with a "traditional" liquor/grist ratio of about 2.5L/Kg then mash for an hour, then add the rest of the water. Will give the beta amylase time to work in a sensible liquor:grist ratio then the additional water will allow you to soak out a little extra sugar. Your efficiency is never going to be great with BIAB, but at least with a sane or "traditional" liquor:grist ratio, you might get some decent tasting beer.

Cheers and a Beery Xmas to you all.

PoMo.

There was some discussion about thin mashes though thinness was not defined and without going through the whole beta destruction argument again, a normal brewer would describe a thin mash as say 3.5:1, not double that. Certainly as the sugar concentration in a mash increases the enzyme activity decreases and you may also interested to know that whilst as the mash temp increases (again within a normal band) so does the efficiency, we are only talking single percents or so in either case...

and ..Finally...(almost) from #338

Your concern about the no-sparging and the idea about dunking the bag has lead me to an epiphany. So I'm going to end this post with the hope that I have maybe helped a bit and ask you to see the next post for my ultimate solution to all the woes and worries of BIAB (well maybe)

I gotta learn to type faster

Thirsty

and #339

There you go. Now we are mashing at a normal L:G ratio and we get to sparge as well. So the why nots are pretty much taken care of. We didn't have to buy any extra gear over Full Volume No sparge BIAB and although its a little bit more complex, its not a lot. You just need to juggle the volumes and temps a bit. Of course if you are lazy, you could still just skip the sparging bit and just top your kettle up to pre-boil volume before you pull the bag.

Whaddayareckon?

Thirsty

So..there you have it...I pointed out in my Dec 24 post that you were headed in right direction but just on the wrong road, Blake and Post Modern cottoned on pretty much straight away, I got mud thrown at me (in some cases it was just a return of what I had slung).
So is born the MBIAB...will it work..well against all odds in some eye (s) BIAB did so..
Can I see any problems, from a brewing process no, from an equipment process...well..in a previous life I sold a lot of rag, hectares of it probably, so I have some knowledge about textiles, these bags, particularly if made from calico or worse muslin are going to degrade, and fairly quickly waht with the combination of heat, moisture, mechanical force..the weight of the grain..and possibly some laxness in so far as cleaning and washing and drying straight way and the various moulds that will form..and one day, soon, without warning the bag, probably on lifting will split and totally bag your brew man.
Some suggestions:
Use a high quality textile (I suggest Trevira CS) for your bag.
Crack as coarsely as your mill will allow.
Do your "mash" at 3:1 L:G
Use some removable insulation during the mashing cycle
When you add your dump sparge water make sure that the total wort temp is not above 70C and let it sit for 10 minutes befoe run off.
Good Luck....

Kurtz

 

[blackbock]

Can I see any problems, from a brewing process no, from an equipment process...well..in a previous life I sold a lot of rag, hectares of it probably, so I have some knowledge about textiles, these bags, particularly if made from calico or worse muslin are going to degrade, and fairly quickly waht with the combination of heat, moisture, mechanical force..the weight of the grain..and possibly some laxness in so far as cleaning and washing and drying straight way and the various moulds that will form..and one day, soon, without warning the bag, probably on lifting will split and totally bag your brew man.
Some suggestions:
Use a high quality textile (I suggest Trevira CS) for your bag.
Crack as coarsely as your mill will allow.
Do your "mash" at 3:1 L:G
Use some removable insulation during the mashing cycle
When you add your dump sparge water make sure that the total wort temp is not above 70C and let it sit for 10 minutes befoe run off.
Good Luck....

Kurtz

I am curious about your recommendation for a better fabric Kurtz, what is this Trevira CS stuff and where would one purchase said textile?

that's all

 

[therook]

Good to see you were wearing saftey shoes in the pics Blake

Hot water, bare feet....good combo

rook

 

[3GumsBrewing]

Ok guys, I have finally got all my ingredients ready to try and make the Schwartzbier.
But I have a quick question - where the hell do I get a 50L pot around Syd? I could have sworn my current pot was big enough but upon testing it is only a 35L !! (So much for preparation!)

Cheers

 

[Maxt]

It is with much sadness that I am announcing my retirement from BIAB. I did find that the under attenuated beers were too sweet (especially my Porters). I didn't notice it so much with the hoppy APA.

I can see how BIAB would work with the reduced water to grain ratio, but if you ned a second pot to get sparge water up, then you have defeated the idea of one vessel brewing.

If it wasn't for BIAB I wouldn't have started grain brewing, so it was a good step to take.
:beer:

Beer number 3 in the new mash tun has just been finished, and it is a thing of beauty!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Well, Dr K ha re-surfaced

and using quotes from among others, me, has justified himsef and emerged from the argument triumphant.

Well bollcks to that, I'm not very bloody happy and I think its time to vent.

Dr K. I STILL disagree with your conclusions on wort fermentability and the "standard" BIAB mash thickness. Vague assertions that the arguments we have been using were not meant to be applied at the L:G ratios that BIAB calls for aside, the conclusions to be drawn from the literature are certainly not so obvious that you can honestly and definitavely come down on either side. You interpret one way, I interpret another.

Actual results is what will solve the argument and at this point in time, the vast majority of evidence seems to point ot the fact that BIAB worts are NOT underattenuative. At this time I can recall only 1 report of underattenuated beer that is a result of BIAB. Thats from Maxt, who has decided that BIAB isn't for him. Fair enough. But I hardly think that the poor results of one, new to AG brewer, counter balance the positive results of so many more. BIAB could result in underattenuated wort, no doubt. That doesn't mean it has to result in it, and the evidence suggests that mostly it doesn't, no matter how much you might wish it would.

But Yea and Nay arguments aside, thats not why I am pissed off. Why I am pissed off with Dr K is for this

Quote: (DR K said)

"So..there you have it...I pointed out in my Dec 24 post that you were headed in right direction but just on the wrong road, Blake and Post Modern cottoned on pretty much straight away, I got mud thrown at me (in some cases it was just a return of what I had slung).
So is born the MBIAB...will it work..well against all odds in some eye (s) BIAB did so.."


Well thanks frigging heaps Dr K. Here was everyone else ernestly trying to develop a new, easy, cheap and effective way of brewing AG. Identifying problems, thinking about solutions, testing and trying.

You managed to point out a bunch of reasons why it wouldn't work, but never once offered any hints about how it might be MADE to work! No... just a series of smug comments that Dr K knows why it wont work, and Dr K knows how it could work, but he wont tell us, he'll just let all us poor confused and obviously not quite as smart brewers stumble around in the dark untill one of us has a eureka moment. Then the benevolent Dr K will smile down from above and tell us how clever we are, and how he know that we would get it eventually...

Well thanks DrK, it seems I was the eureka boy in this instance and I really appreciate your prodding me about being wrong until I eventually got it right. Now I dont feel quite as mentally retarded as I did before.

Of course, I would have appreciated it even more, if you had just suggested the solution, instead of being a self satisfied, sanctimonious, patronising git

Its interesting how such an omniscient commentator as DrK warns us about the perils of muslin or calico bags, when if he had actually been paying attention to the suggested process, he would have noticed that the reccomended material for the bags is a 100% polyester Voile. Strange how it makes me feel better to know that this person so quickly and easily demonstrates that he was never really commenting on actual BIAB, only on what his narcissism fogged mind decided it was going to be...

Thirsty

(yeah I know that it'll probably get trimmed... sorry for the PITA moderators)

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I can see how BIAB would work with the reduced water to grain ratio, but if you need a second pot to get sparge water up, then you have defeated the idea of one vessel brewing.

Maxt,

When I suggested the reduced L:G + sparge method for BIAB, I definately kept in mind that one of the points of BIAB was to not have to have more than one vessel. I just took advanatage of the fact that nobody actually has only one vessel. We all have fermetors as well. You would heat up the extra/sparge water in your kettle and temporarily store it in the fermetor you already have. The use it later in the dilution/sparge process.

Then you eliminate some of the percieved flaws in BIAB without having to buy any more equipment, or take up any more space.

Sorry to see you are off the BIAB wagon, but if it wasn't working for you, what else could you do.

Glad to see that it helped you get into the AG process and its even better to hear that your mash tun is doing the job for you and that you are making great beer. awesome.

Thirsty

 

[FNQ Bunyip]

Thirsty Good posts again , Thanks for your eforts in protecting us poor ill informed new AG BIAB'ers...

I have now compleated 14 Biab brews and finnished drinking 8 of them, All of them are way better than anything I have ever brewed in the past 17 years of making home brew and everyone that has tasted tham wants more.

As new AG brewers I doubt that the posiable underattenuation would be noticable to any of us and that this is only somthing that we can continue to reserch and develop in a constructive manner with input from as many as possiable in a forum such as this.
Brewers closer to other brewers have the advantage of being able to swap and share there brews for a better feedback.
With a new year there are a new round of competitions comming up and it would be good to see a few BIAB's get entered maybe even take out a place or 2 and get the score card results to see what the (JUDGES) have to say of our method .. At least they will have tasted it befor making unsubstanciated claims ..

Brew on fellow BIAB'ers...

:beer: