3V upgrade to 50L on gas

[seehuusen]

Hey guys,

I've been wanting to upgrade my 3V setup for a while now. Up until now, I've been using a Big W pot for my HLT & Kettle along with a 20L Water cooler from Bunnings.
The setup makes great beer, but just not quite enough of it As I'm newly a father as well, time seems to be limited, and I can't get brew days as often as I'd like, plus the yield just doesn't seem enough for the effort to be honest...

With a clean-up in the brew room/ Man shed last weekend, I decided it was time to start building the new setup, using 50L kegs.
At the moment, I only have 2 kegs, which means I'll have to use my old 19L kettle for sparging. This will limit me to 30L batches-ish to start off with... That's fine, I'll find another keg soon enough I'm sure.

I've re-used the metal from something else, but I figure by the time I'm finished welding it, I'll paint it anyway, so that should be fine.

This is the square that I'll use as the top of the stand:

I'll make it tall enough for a 9L gas bottle to fit underneath, in the middle

It's been a few years since I welded last, and gas-less migs don't make it super pretty... But that can be hidden with a grinder and some paint...

I got the legs on, and ran out of wire... I quick trip to the shop will sort that out, but for now I'm stalled without the wire...

And a bit of a trial fit to see how the kegs will fit. That 19L pot looks TINY by comparison LOL

This is as far as I've planned (excuse the crude paint diagram LOL)

I still need to decide on how to mount the gas burners, as well as putting a few braces onto the rig, as I really don't want a fail on of any of the legs on a brew day... I know it can hold my weight, which is 110, but better safe than sorry is my motto

suggestions and ideas are greatly welcomed, let me know what you think please

Cheers
Martin

 

[TheWiggman]

[insert obligitory HERMS suggestion]

I think you'll find that 19l for sparging will be nowhere near enough if you're doing 30l batches. For a 3l/kg grist ratio you end up with around 20-25l of sparge water for a standard 5% 23l batch. If I were you I'd be looking into this fast, or be prepared to do 2 x bath sparges or use hot tap water.

What are the plans for heating the HLT?
Pumps? Recirc? Insulation plans for mash tun?

Looks like you're using about 30mm gal RHS which will be able to hold the weight of the whole lot without collapsing. If you're not planning to already another pair of legs in the middle will make it all much more stable. And to weld gal it's a good idea to grind/flapper disc off the gal coating prior to welding. Makes it much easier to weld and better for your lungs.
Also come cross-bracing on the legs wouldn't go astray.

Funny how getting kids often awakens the desire for hobbies like this. Maybe it's due to the fact your simple travelling and dining out days are over?

 

[seehuusen]

Hey mate,

HERMS is definitely on the cards, though it'll be a project in a few months, when I've investigated the best/ economical way of doing it.
I'm currently leaning towards the PVC pipe with a kettle element solution, controlled with a Sestos PID... I have a mate who's a plumber, so I'll get in contact with him once I've gotten the brew stand built and trialled.

As for the sparge water, I've previously been batch sparging. Before building this, I had a play with numbers in Brew Mate.
According to that, using a 30L batch size, I can go for a slightly higher than 3L/Kg ratio, and come in under 19L of sparge water.
My plan is to heat the water in the Boil Kettle, transfer it across to the mash tun using a pump. Then when the mash is completed, I'll transfer it back into the brew kettle and add the sparge water afterwards.
I'm not sure how this technique would affect my efficiency, I guess there's only one way to find out

HLT and Boil Kettle will both be heated using gas. I've been doing that with my smaller setup, and not had any major dramas (79% efficiency).
I generally pre-heat the sparge water, then when transferring the wort to the BK, I heat the sparge water back up to where it needs to be (generally high 90's/ close to boil).
I live in a rental property, so I don't have access to massive amounts of high amp power points (e.g. all are 10amp), this means I'll have to make some sacrifices and I'd rather utilize gas instead of multiple extension cords.

Thanks for the tip on the galvanized coating, I've been using a wire brush on my grinder to get a clean surface. I'll certainly make sure that none of that stuff is left on, doesn't sound healthy at all...
The design is pretty rudimentary at the moment, I'll certainly take your advice on the cross-bracing. My thoughts were to put two sets of legs in the middle, that I could use to fit the two gas burners, but I might just go one set and cross brace against the outer legs
Is this sort of what you're suggesting?

Cheers
Martin

 

[TheWiggman]

Good stuff. The gal's got a bad rap for lung health but to be honest I'm more concerned about the spatter and penetration issues with it. I hate welding it. Coupled with gasless MIG, it can be very frustrating. Your welds look fine though so I wouldn't be concerned.
The bracing above is overkill. I was thinking a single 45° or 30° on each corner (so 8 in total). You just want something that's going to stop the legs from moving towards or away from one other. As it is, you'll probably find it will 'rock' if you bump into it with a load on it. Otherwise check out some other designs here - a lot of people go for a second floor on the stand. I think it's a good idea. It adds stiffness and can serve other purposes like a rest for the gas cylinder. Or a stand for the HERMS h34r:

Re: efficiency, are you talking mash or energy? It won't affect your mash efficiency. 79% is pretty handy for a 3 tier rig.

 

[seehuusen]

Thanks for the clarification, I was planning on welding in triangles on each corner and toying with the idea of a bottom shelf... hehe, as mentioned HERMS is coming later along with a side table to hold hops additions!

Only reason I'm using the gal-RHS is because I already had it, and didn't need it for anything else, diaper budget eats into my beer budget hahaha

79% is my approximate brew house efficiency, using my current system.

Do you guys recommend insulating the mash tun? Camping mat is that the go?

Cheers again for your input, very appreciated!

Martin

 

[seehuusen]

minor update, I've gotten more wire, so the progress can continue

I've revised my plan according to advice from TheWiggman, THANKS!
It now looks like this:

And I'll add a bottom shelf at a later stage.

I've also had a chance to play around with some measurements and move the 3-ring gas burner around a little.
This is now the plan for mounting the burner:

Left is from the top and right is from the front.

I'll have two RHS going across to hold the keg, along with two pieces on either side of the frame as well.
On the two that goes across, I'll weld a lowered piece across to hold the ring part of the burner.
On the frame, I'll have two lowering pieces, with nuts welded onto them. These will then have a flat piece of steel that locks the burner in place.
This means I can remove it easily if need be.

I also went and picked up some brass ball valves. I know stainless is recommended, but the cost of them is just ridiculous by comparison... At least at this stage, besides, I can't see any problem using these (Australia doesn't allow lead to be used when casting them, so there should be no contamination issues)
In my order from National Homebrew, I bought a brew-thermometer, which looks tops. I'm very happy with that, and can't wait to install it. It'll go in my brew kettle, as I'll be using it for bringing the mash water up to temp (it'll later become my HLT)

Hopefully I can get a couple of hours of welding in this arvo, I'd really like to make the first attempt at brewing in those keggels this weekend if possible. I'm running low on beer

Cheers
Martin

 

[sp0rk]

I also went and picked up some brass ball valves. I know stainless is recommended, but the cost of them is just ridiculous by comparison... At least at this stage, besides, I can't see any problem using these (Australia doesn't allow lead to be used when casting them, so there should be no contamination issues)

No lead in casting, but I believe there is lead in machining
Pickling them will remove any risk present (i've done it with all my brass brewing parts)

 

[TheWiggman]

Trying not to go too OT but I'm pretty sure most/all brass in Australia would contain some lead. As it's an alloy it needs to be added on casting, but forms at the surface and gets machined where it's machined. Lead-free isn't, and is apparently up to 0.25% lead.
Surfaces that make contact with the wort though would likely be machined so would contain minimal amounts of lead.

 

[seehuusen]

It's an interesting topic, and Stainless is better, no argument there. Considering brass has been used in our water supply lines for many years, from my research I'd think there would be more lead contamination coming from the water source than anyone could measure coming from the brass fittings in my brew setup...
None the less, the Peroxide/Vinegar bath would certainly remove any left over contamination and leave a nice oxidisation on the fittings, thanks for pointing that out sp0rk.
Lead only really starts to contaminate in low Ph environments, and 5.2Ph level isn't extremely acidic. I'm happy to run the brass fittings, and would only be concerned if I needed to use solder in my setup somewhere, which I won't anyway.

 

[TheWiggman]

Many people use brass fittings around the globe. I wouldn't be concerned.

 

[sponge]

As a side note, the cost of going SS with taps is fairly minimal compared to a lot of brewing purchases.

It's a little price to pay for the peace of mind IMO.

But as has been said, brass is being used around the world so is nothing to pack up shop over.

The build looks like it's going along nicely though. Keep us posted!

 

[seehuusen]

A bit of an update, the stand is now ready for paint!!
I'm pretty happy how it turned out, here are a few progress pictures

I welded supports for the 3 ring burner, then welded some nuts to allow me to remove the burner if I needed to

Test fitting with the keg on top, sits pretty good on top. I do need to trim 1 of the taller fins on the burner, as it's on a very slight angle.

Followed advise and welded in pieces that would later allow me to add a shelf on the bottom.

Mash tun and HLT supports in place. I also welded a bracket in place on the middle legs.

With brackets welded in on the corner legs too, it was a simple matter of cleaning up the welds and getting some etch primer on there. Next up is the paint, I'm probably just going to go black on this one.
(My hops are going in the back ground, but not really charging yet... I think they too are waiting for longer sunnier days )

One more from a different angle.

Test fitting the Kegs.

So next step, besides paint, is to get these kegs drilled.
I've tried 2 step drills now, and both have gone blunt. I'm drilling with oil, going slow, as recommended, but can't seem to get them to do the job I want...
On Monday I'll just drop both kegs down to the local metal fab shop, and they can surely drill the 3 holes I want.

No beer brewed this weekend as I had hoped for, but that's OK. I've got 14L of hoppy IPA to bottle tomorrow anyway :beerbang:

Cheers
Martin

 

[seehuusen]

A massive thanks to Pete who offered up his skills and drilled/ filed the holes out for me :beer: Pete also showed me around his brew setup, and I got way too many ideas for the size of my wallet h34r:
I'll be fitting the ball-valves and thermometer tomorrow, as soon as I've gotten a couple of washers for them from the local Engineering shop for the ball-valves...

 

[Crouch]

It's looking great! I'd love to be able to weld.

 

[seehuusen]

It's not too hard to learn mate, a few simple principles and about $300 for a mig That's pretty much what I'm running.

Got the rest of the bits done, so I now have taps, thermometer and a burner setup... I'm actually able to brew a batch this weekend

Here's the setup

I need to weld in a couple of pieces to raise the BK a bit, as the gas wasn't getting enough space to burn where it was originally... I'll weld them in place and give that a lick of paint when I get a chance (i.e. probably after I've brewed a batch on this bad boy )

Cheers
Martin

 

[seehuusen]

First batch through the new brewery

I brewed up a recipe I'd come up with a month or so ago. It's a Danish Christmas beer, here's the thread on the recipe: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/80751-julebryg/

A couple of notes, first one being that I need to get a pump! I used gravity and just lifted the keg up, but that's pretty heavy full of wort... It didn't feel safe or good to do it by hand.
The 3 ring burner will do for now, but I'll probably grow out of that quite quickly...

Other than that, I love the new setup! The stand is super sturdy

 

[seehuusen]

OK, stage two of this upgrade is to make a HERMs setup.
I've ordered two Arduino micro controllers, which I'll in the first instance program to be a stand alone setup.
The longer term solution will probably be a Windows application, which will control the Arduino via the serial port, probably just using USB (although wireless is a kinky-nerdy option lol).
I spoke to Angus on this forum, who is using a Data Acquisition device via the USB port, I like the idea, but would also like something stand alone to begin with. If I find a need to log temperature graphs etc, then I'll manage that in stage 2.

So the plan is to program something that allows for 3 or 4 steps in the mashing schedule. Be able to set the desired temperature for these steps, plus a duration. Then hit "play" and off you go.
To do this, I'll need a few buttons, transistors and an LCD screen, all of which I've ordered.
Along with all this, I've also ordered a temperature sensor (ds18b20).

While I have a play around with this, I'll develop on my idea for the HERMs, which currently are as follows:

Rather than using a length of PVC pipe as suggested in another DIY thread, I'll use a stainless steel bain marie with a lid.
The one I'm looking at holds 2.5l of water, is 17.6cm (w) x 16.2cm (l) x 15.0cm (d).
I think it would be MUCH easier to attach the heating element to a flat surface, as well as not having any issue with melting plastic if the temps get a bit high...
In this, I'll put an element out of a kettle at the bottom, along with a copper coil to start off with. If I round down my approximate calculations, I should be able to get 2 meters of 1/2" copper in there.
I'm not 100% sure if this is enough or not... What do you guys reckon?
if it isn't enough, I can go with a larger vessel, but ramping temps would be slower.

Here's a diagram of what I'm thinking

For the temp sensor, I'd prefer it to sit somewhere in the output line, outside the HERMs vessel. I'm thinking of using a T piece and add the sensor into that.
I'm currently looking for a suitable thermowell, not too sure what I should use yet. I'll wait until I get the sensor, to get the exact dimensions and go from there.

Thoughts and improvements are greatly appreciated. I'm still in the planning stage, but will start development of the Arduino this week.
Of course, if this all pans out well, the Arduino will be similar to a PID with the stepping temps, and should be considerably cheaper than a sestos PID, which doesn't have stepping anyway (I think you'll have to go for an Auber Instruments one, at about $80 if you want stepped temperatures). I'll happily share the software in the end, if anyone is interested.
I'm sure it'd be easier to just fork out the money and buy a PID, I'm not doing this to save money, it's more the challenge that I like.

Cheers
Martin

 

[TheWiggman]

2 metres = plenty. I'll be impressed to see you squeeze it all in a 2.5l pot.
Your suggestion with the temp probe is spot on, on its way out of the coil. I'd use a male compression on the inside and screwed a T peice on the ouside - simple as.
Flat spot = easier yes, but nothing a hammer and some gentle bashing can't address on a round pot. Far easier to be flat to start with though.

I like the Arduino approach. Depending on how you attack it, there's a good chance it'll end up cheaper and the world is your oyster. Plus who doesn't like building and tinkering? Women is the answer.

 

[seehuusen]

I'd use a male compression on the inside and screwed a T peice on the ouside - simple as.

Yep, that's exactly what I was planning on doing
My biggest issue is finding a thermowell that suits that setup (most I've seen are male connections, not female), anyone got any ideas?
An adapter male to female might exist perhaps?

Plus who doesn't like building and tinkering? Women is the answer.

hahaha, that's very true, it is half the fun with any hobby I've ever had

 

[TheWiggman]

How come the thermowell's an issue? Here's my setup which is standard for HERMS -

That's a compression fitting to a T-piece. If you put a 25mm BSP nut and silicone washer on inside of the pot then you'll get a good seal. Screw your T-piece onto the thread sticking out and that will hold it all together. Onlinebrewingsupplies, National Home Brew and Craft Brewer (all site sponsors) all sell thermowells to suit. The tee is female so it'll screw straight in.
Or were you not planning to put the thermowell in the flow? If not, I'd change plans.