Yeast starters - a bit like "it never rains in Southern California"

[Drover's dog]

To the degree of my understanding on yeast starters I hold up my hands and ask...

But first a bit of background I'm an engineer so at some time, along time ago I could do math, now when you all talk about (x) billions of yeast cells in a starters , I really have to ask myself were is the proof in your long stories on this issue.
Why use good DME spin it for, according to y'all anything from 9hrs,13hrs and even 3 days. Then you chill it, throw all but the yeast away and consider yourself as having made a great starter.
Chemist I'm not but if you're interested in high performance turbines, I'm your man. Starters are a bit like 'it never rains in Southern California' but it does.

 

[malt and barley blues]

I love discussions about Brown Boveri, and the critical speed.

 

[MHB]

There is an old saying in brewing "we make wort - yeast makes beer" you will (or at least can) make the best beer possible from a wort if you pitch the right amount of healthy (Vitality) and live (Viability) yeast.
There are pretty well understood amounts of yeast required to get the most from the wort you made. Its very important to understand that yeast does a lot more than just make alcohol. It's prime directive is to make yeast, it also removes some wort constituents that we don't want in the finished beer, changes the pH of the beer, produces esters that give flavour...
So getting the pitch right is pretty important.
If you want to do a bit of reading try what Braukaiser has to say, its pretty rational - a lot of what you will read on forums is (trying to be polite) problematic!

I count yeast by spinning down a sample in a lab centrifuge and weighing, can use a turbidity meter for rough counts and am working on setting up a couple of new propagators for semi commercial volumes.
So yes I think its both important and worthwhile, also believe its important to be able to measure rather than guess.
Mark

 

[Whistlingjack]

I count yeast by spinning down a sample in a lab centrifuge and weighing

Something like this may make the task easier and provide more accuracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemocytometer

WJ

 

[MHB]

Yes its a good option, I lack a good enough microscope at present and there are a few other tests I'm exploring that require a sample about the size I can centrifuge (intracellular pH, total protein...) tests that can give good indications of Vitality, which just counting cant.
Also I'm at the age where peering down a microscope is getting to be very hard work (getting olditis sux)
Mark

 

[Whistlingjack]

Also I'm at the age where peering down a microscope is getting to be very hard work (getting olditis sux)

There is a pretty cool solution to this problem that involves the use of a digital camera.

WJ

 

[MHB]

Yep - lovely bit of kit, you want to fund it? I cant, but I have a centrifuge, scales, turbidity meter, UV-VIS...
Anyway for what I'm working on I need the 10mL samples I'm taking so its probably a good option for me at this point.
Have done some cross checking and my results are well within acceptable error (serial dilution onto agar plates and count colony's) which has other uses to.

More than one way as they say to skin a cat (pretty hard on the cat me thinks), if I was setting up just to count yeast yep a Microscope and hemocytometer or even a nephelometer or other cell counter would be great.
Mark

 

[Drover's dog]

There is an old saying in brewing "we make wort - yeast makes beer" you will (or at least can) make the best beer possible from a wort if you pitch the right amount of healthy (Vitality) and live (Viability) yeast.
There are pretty well understood amounts of yeast required to get the most from the wort you made. Its very important to understand that yeast does a lot more than just make alcohol. It's prime directive is to make yeast, it also removes some wort constituents that we don't want in the finished beer, changes the pH of the beer, produces esters that give flavour...
So getting the pitch right is pretty important.
If you want to do a bit of reading try what Braukaiser has to say, its pretty rational - a lot of what you will read on forums is (trying to be polite) problematic!

I count yeast by spinning down a sample in a lab centrifuge and weighing, can use a turbidity meter for rough counts and am working on setting up a couple of new propagators for semi commercial volumes.
So yes I think its both important and worthwhile, also believe its important to be able to measure rather than guess.
Mark

Mark,
I shall read "Braukaiser" and thanks for the information. I get a general feeling from reading numerous posts that as far as yeast is concerned "the more the better". Obviously misleading or as you politely put it "problematic". I shall read on. I notice most recipes that I have seen have little to say about yeast/type or amount in their list of ingredients.

 

[MHB]

Not really, you can use too much and that causes it's own problems, mind you its a lot harder to achieve.
The key concepts in managing yeast are Population (how many) Viability (how many are alive) Vitality (how old/healthy the cells are) and the Environment (the wort you are putting them into, inc nutrient and O2).
Bit like one of your turbines, there will be an optimum speed, too slow and too fast (where baring's cook and tips go supersonic).
There are plenty of fairly simple ways to get a big enough healthy enough population and a fair idea of how many cells you are pitching.
No need to get obsessive about it but yes its important (and interesting).
Mark