Yeast Activation Problem

[Julez]

Hi all,

I searched some past posts and found a few answers to my question, but unsure what remedial action to take in case my yeast doesn't end up firing....

My second time using liquid yeast. First time, after smacking the pack it swelled within 2-3 hours. This latest pack I smacked on the morning of brew day, which I now know is too late, as in this case it did not swell. The pack is 2 months old. I pitched it anyway, after having smacked the pack and letting it sit there for about 5hrs of inactivity. Next time I will make a starter...

Anyway, about 40hrs have passed with no activity. The wort looks fine and I haven't opened the lid at all to mess with it, so no visible signs of infection so far. I haven't taken a gravity reading yet since my inital OG reading, so will do this tonight too.

I know I could be waiting another day yet from other posts I've read, but if it STILL doesn't activate at that point, what should I do? Repitch a fresh and proven batch of yeast? If so, how long should I wait before doing this? Are there any other measures I can take to encourage the yeast to the dinner table?

Cheers

 

[Cortez The Killer]

I'd be getting yeast into the wort asap

Was it an AG, extract or kit beer? Full volume boil?

The other "fresh and proven batch of yeast" - is this another smack pack?

You could try keeping the non activating smack pack at higher temps eg 25*C to encourage swelling

The last smack pack I used took almost a full week to swell (it was from Jan 07 though)

But my wort was in a no-chill cube so I wasn't concerned

Cheers

 

[Julez]

I'd be getting yeast into the wort asap

Was it an AG, extract or kit beer? Full volume boil?

The other "fresh and proven batch of yeast" - is this another smack pack?

You could try keeping the non activating smack pack at higher temps eg 25*C to encourage swelling

The last smack pack I used took almost a full week to swell (it was from Jan 07 though)

But my wort was in a no-chill cube so I wasn't concerned

Cheers

Thanks Cortez. It was an AG Brown Porter, OG 1.050 and 19L into the fermenter. Wyeast 1028 London Ale. Just to clarify, the yeast was already pitched on Sunday arvo, but it had not activated in the pack after 5hrs.

I haven't got another yeast of the same strain on hand, so I'd have to organise something to pickup today (therefore not Wyeast, as I'm in BRS where noone sells it :angry: ), unless I order it today and wait until tomorrow to repitch...

Aside from repitching a new yeast, or the existing yeast magically kicking off, I'm pretty knackered then?

 

[Cortez The Killer]

Sorry I missed that you'd actually pitched it

Give it some more time to take off in the fermenter - as long as everything was sanitary a longer than normal lag time should be an issue.

Any indicators of anything happening? Condensation - yeast cake formation?

I reckon it'll be a waiting game

Wyeast reckons that theres 6 months vitality in the smack packs before using a starter and 19L of 1.050 wort is within the guidelines

Cheers

 

[Julez]

Yeah, no action at all yet. Looking into the top of the fermenter, it the wort looks crystal clear with nothing at all on the surface, other than a few tiny bubbles, maybe filling an area the size of your thumb.

Will take a gravity reading tonight to see if anything has happened - with any luck, I will get home to see some more concrete signs of activity and won't have to sweat over it further.

Still, I'd like to know what to do if another 2 or 3 days go by with no activity, so I can prepare myself :huh:

 

[pint of lager]

Get another yeast in there ASAP.

The lag time is when your brew is most susceptable to infection.

Any wild yeast or bacteria multiply at about 10 times the rate of your yeast. So if you have a very low yeast count and an infection, the infection will rocket off. These infections create byeproducts, some of which we can taste at very very low levels.

The aim with pitching a healthy active yeast is to get it in there multiplying and making conditions unfavourable for infections. Low Ph, low oxygen and some alcohol all help stop some infections in their tracks (not all of them though.)

The no chill brigade have managed to organise a set of guidelines to make their brew sanitary and have almost zero exposure to any contamination post boil.

Because you have added the brew to a fermenter, airated and pitched a yeast, your brew has been subject to contamination from the air.

Yeasts only work to their timetable, not yours. Never use a pack unless it has swollen fully, never brew untill you have your yeast ready to go.

Your wort is clear which indicates there is no yeast activity. Usually, cloudy wort is a sure sign things are happening.

An infection at this stage is impossible to pick up except by using a microscope. Any visible sign could be an infection or your yeast.

 

[Julez]

Get another yeast in there ASAP.

The lag time is when your brew is most susceptable to infection.

Any wild yeast or bacteria multiply at about 10 times the rate of your yeast. So if you have a very low yeast count and an infection, the infection will rocket off. These infections create byeproducts, some of which we can taste at very very low levels.

The aim with pitching a healthy active yeast is to get it in there multiplying and making conditions unfavourable for infections. Low Ph, low oxygen and some alcohol all help stop some infections in their tracks (not all of them though.)

The no chill brigade have managed to organise a set of guidelines to make their brew sanitary and have almost zero exposure to any contamination post boil.

Because you have added the brew to a fermenter, airated and pitched a yeast, your brew has been subject to contamination from the air.

Yeasts only work to their timetable, not yours. Never use a pack unless it has swollen fully, never brew untill you have your yeast ready to go.

Your wort is clear which indicates there is no yeast activity. Usually, cloudy wort is a sure sign things are happening.

An infection at this stage is impossible to pick up except by using a microscope. Any visible sign could be an infection or your yeast.

Thanks for the detailed response, POL. I've certainly learned these lessons now...you've pretty much confirmed all my suspicions.

Will go home via the HBS tonight to get a fresh lot of yeast <_<

Hopefully it's not curtains for my Porter just yet....

Cheers, Julez.

 

[kabooby]

You could also try rousing the yeast back into suspension. I have had this work for me several times before I used to make starters.

If you make a healthy starter and pitch into aerated wort at the correct temp you will never have any problems

kabooby :icon_cheers:

 

[bigfridge]

Yeah, no action at all yet. Looking into the top of the fermenter, it the wort looks crystal clear with nothing at all on the surface, other than a few tiny bubbles, maybe filling an area the size of your thumb.

Will take a gravity reading tonight to see if anything has happened - with any luck, I will get home to see some more concrete signs of activity and won't have to sweat over it further.

Still, I'd like to know what to do if another 2 or 3 days go by with no activity, so I can prepare myself :huh:

Julez,

Wyeast have covered all this on their FAQ page.

 

[newguy]

The isolated tiny patches of bubbles could be a good sign. I see the same thing about 1-2 hours before the wort gets covered by a thick blanket of bubbles.

 

[Julez]

Julez,

Wyeast have covered all this on their FAQ page.

Thanks bigfridge. I did take a look at that a little earlier. I think when I get home tonight, I'll see if anything is happening in terms of visible activity and a SG reading. If something is going on, I'll just leave it. If nothing going on, will be pitching some dried Safale, though hope I don't have to...

And yep, will follow that advice for all future batches, Kabooby (making the starter) :icon_cheers:

This is starting to sound a lot like SJW's thread....

 

[Julez]

The isolated tiny patches of bubbles could be a good sign. I see the same thing about 1-2 hours before the wort gets covered by a thick blanket of bubbles.

I like your optimism, Newguy, and choose to believe that you are right and that this WILL happen

 

[SJW]

Wyeast have covered all this on their FAQ page.

Good reading this!

 

[kingmoore]

Hello all! First post here so go easy .

I came to the board with a very similar problem, and luckily found this thread before starting my own topic.

Making an Oatmeal Stout w/Coopers Premium (or whatever) Irish Stout extract and various malts. Using the yeast that came with the kit. Rehydrated the yeast for a couple of hours (water should not have been too hot), then pitched into ~25C wart.

48 hours later and there is zero visible activity. Wart is sitting at 18C. No bubbles, no blow off, nuttin. In the past things have always started going almost immediately.

The only other yeast I have at the moment is yeast that comes with a Morgan's Royal Oak Amber Ale extract. Could I go ahead and re-pitch with this yeast (after rehydrating)? Or could there be a problem if it is differerent? Don't know how I could get more of the same yeast as I would have to buy a new can of extract and I don't know if I will be able to get to the brew store any time soon. Oh one more note, I had a feeling the extract I got might have been on the shelf for a while, but it was well before the expiry date (Nov 08 I think).

This thread was helpful. Any more advice specific to my situation would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[kingmoore]

Guessing no resonse cause I tacked my question on at the end of this thread after the OP had been answered, but a quick update none the less.

After no activity for 4 days with original yeast, we re-pitched with the second yeast mentioned above. Was worried as we had no activity again for about 48 hours. Then on day three started to get some bubbles/foam on top. Now at day five there is a decent amount of 'stuff' on top. Still nothing like the crazy activity I am used to the first week, but I guess I am attributing that to colder temperatures (steady 18C) than I have brewed in before.

 

[mika]

18C should have been fine. Did you rehydrate with just water or was there some DME in there to feed the yeast ? Certainly sounds like your first yeast had gone the way of the Dodo. Even with the second yeast that seems to be a long lag time and I would suggest it's health wasn't that great either. Pitching different yeasts won't cause a problem, the more dominant strain will generally take over the flavour profile of the beer, unless the less dominant yeast is pitched first and allowed to ferment for a while prior to pitching the second yeast...but I'm gettin a bit OT there.

 

[kingmoore]

18C should have been fine. Did you rehydrate with just water or was there some DME in there to feed the yeast ? Certainly sounds like your first yeast had gone the way of the Dodo. Even with the second yeast that seems to be a long lag time and I would suggest it's health wasn't that great either. Pitching different yeasts won't cause a problem, the more dominant strain will generally take over the flavour profile of the beer, unless the less dominant yeast is pitched first and allowed to ferment for a while prior to pitching the second yeast...but I'm gettin a bit OT there.

Thanks for the response. We have only ever rehydrated with water. Would you suggest going that route (DME)? If so, how much and for how long? Thanks.

 

[mika]

This is sure to stoke an old fire. I'd just use maybe a teaspoon of DME into a cup or so of water (20ish degrees), throw in the yeast and in 20mins or so you should see it start to bubble and carry on, thus 'proving' the yeast. Can avoid some angst.