Where To Source Recipes

[pint of lager]

I recieved a PM the other day from a brewer who has recently moved to AG, and he was after some recipes for clones for some of the premium commercial lagers from Europe. He is thinking of buying one of the Clone Recipe books. Was going to send a PM back, but thought that I would post here.

There are two problems, where to source recipes from and where to source ingredients from.

Cloning a brew is one path that brewers go down. They spend alot of time comparing their brews to a commercial style and refining their recipe so that the end result closely matches the commercial brew. This requires alot of skill. Sometimes, books provide a starting point for recipes, but often, the ingredients specified are unavailable in Australia. To clone a brew 100%, you would need access to the original commercial recipe, ingredients and the skill to put them together. An easier path is to decide what style a particular beer is, then to brew to that style.

Sourcing recipes can be tricky. Obviously, the ones here on AHB use ingredients readily available and also use metric measurements. Some of the web recipes don't specify if they are US or imperial gallons which makes a big difference. US 5 gallons works out to be 19 litres, which will mean your recipe is wrong to start with if you mix them up. Recipes that don't specify IBU, just a quantity of hops with no AA% are also dodgy. Some recipes are obviously fantasy recipes, with no tasting or brewing notes. Recipes that specify grain grist as a % and hops additions as IBU's are easier to use. Recipes that have huge brewing software printouts are a waste of space.

If you are reading a recipe off the web, it can be hard to gauge the brewer's experience. Brewing notes that have comments like, "This is the third time I have brewed and refined this recipe, next time will back the roast back just a little more and up the flavour hops," mean alot. Recipes with no comments are not helpful. Recipes that have not been tasted, just brewed are not very helpful either. If you are adding your recipe to a database, make sure if it is based on someone else's recipe you acknowledge it.

An excellent source of recipes are the Vicbrew booklets. These include the recipes that have placed in their categories, judges tasting notes and also helpful brewing information. Available from Grain and Grape. The years where Victoria host the Nationals also include the recipes from that comp. Many kit and kilo recipes do place in these comps and are included.

Rather than buying a clone style recipe book, I think money would be better spent on a decent brewing book, such as Noonan's "New Brewing Lagers" which includes ale brewing information.

Recipes are only part of the equation to a great brew. The major component is the skill of the brewer. You can have the best gear and ingredients, refractometer, pH meter, Promash, beersmith but if you cannot put it all together, your beer will be hazy, out of balance and turn into bottlebombs.

 

[Kai]

Another thing about sourcing recipes, especially when trying to clone commercial beers (or copy someone else's award-winning homebrew), is that the same recipe will almost never make the same beer, due to differences in equipment, method, phases of the moon, etc. I think that's a factor a lot of people overlook in their recipe quests.

 

[warrenlw63]

I reckon trying to make a total clone is bordering on crap. Why bother when you have the potential to do better? <_<

Making beer, particularly all-grain beer seems to be starting to head down a path of perceived elitism. Speaking from 9 years AG experience I'll throw a slight spanner in the works.

Anybody can make a great beer. Comes as no coincidence that people are doing so more often now. This is due in no small part to the quality of great ingredients we're getting in Australia these days, which unlock the door to greater creativity.

When I did my first AG there were 2 base malts available. Schooner and Franklin. Both had pretty severe limitations in what you could produce but were still quite serviceable to get you approximations of certain classic styles.

It's like a lot of things. Not so much a skill level as opposed to wanting to make it the right way badly enough. Say it until I'm blue in the face. Making beer isn't exactly rocket science.

Actually don't make a clone. Make your own better version. You don't have to factor in economics like the commercial heavyweights do. :beerbang:

Warren -

 

[warrenlw63]

Oh! I forgot to add.

If you really want to fast-track your learning join a HB club and watch and talk to others. You'll thank yourself a thousand times.

Warren -

 

[DrewCarey82]

Adding as such a small group of 12 dedicated brewers thus far has been formed in Sydneys South/East(and even west) so send me a PM as we are having monthly gatherings to share idea's and to different brew related places(Thats the plan only the 1 meet so far)

Affiliation definately intended

 

[Tony]

I agree with warren.

Make your own version.

Take the style of beer you want to mimic and brew a basic recipe that will put you in the ballpark. Drink it and evaluate.

does it need more bitterness, use more hops next time
Is it to sweet, use a drier yeast of mash cooler next time
do i like the flavour of the hops, change hops next time.

the list goes on.

change one thing at a time to see the difference it gives and develop your own house beer that you love.

I know people that want to brew a tooheys old...... why you would want to brew a tooheys new with some caramel colour in it is beyond me. Its about as much an ale as i am rocket scientist.
better off to brew a nice brown porter with some chocolate malt and fresh hops and enjoy what the beer should be lile, not what is offered up by megaswill mobs.

just my 2 bobs worth

cheers

 

[KoNG]

agree with all of the above.! i'd like to add that the book Designing Great Beers.. has been brilliant in helping me understand the process of recipe making while still providing some backbone to work with.
My "favourite" brewing porn is DGB. Thanx Ray.

 

[bindi]

agree with all of the above.! i'd like to add that the book Designing Great Beers.. has been brilliant in helping me understand the process of recipe making while still providing some backbone to work with.
My "favourite" brewing porn is DGB. Thanx Ray.

When I did a Google search for DGB it came up with Dangerous Goods Board

 

[Bobby]

DGB = Designing Great Beers

 

[Voosher]

Some very good advice but I particularly endorse this one...

change one thing at a time to see the difference it gives and develop your own house beer that you love.


...
just my 2 bobs worth

cheers

A good 2 bobs worth there.

You'll be surprised how many beer styles are linked by relatively few ingredients especially amongst the British Ales.
All pale grain for a Summer Pale Ale, add some crystal for a bitter, add some choc to a bitter for a porter, the same bitter grist with darker crystal and a bit of roast barley for an Irish Red.

Most importantly you will really find out what different ingredients do if you vary your recipes a little each time. I have never brewed the same brew twice. Pretty much every time I change one thing.
Cheers.

 

[pint of lager]

I agree with everyone's comments, especially about using Ray Daniels' book, "Designing Great Beers." It belongs on every brewer's bookshelf. Between that and Noonan, a brewer has great resources.

Often when a brewer is starting out, they are keen to do a Bitburger, or something similar, when they actually have the ability to brew much better, they just haven't realised it.

 

[Duff]

All above are good points, but I don't see how it's 'crap' in trying to clone a commercial beer.

Agreed that it's one of the two reasons why many get into HB'ing initially (apart from the old cheap piss line), but as the HB'er evolves as such, then his/her appreciation of good beer also evolves. They then tend to grow out of the mould of I want to replicate Crown, to I want to try and replicate something like Chimay or LCPA (look at how many attempts on this board alone have been undertaken with Jayse's base receipe).

A great commercial beer IMO is a very good level to try and aspire to. The Chimay and LCPA clones can evolve to a Trappist and APA style more to your enjoyment, however if you enjoy those beers now then why not try and improve your brewing knowledge to a point where they are comparible? Along the way you learn many lessons which you may then want to impart on your next receipe, making you a better brewer.

Cheers.

 

[PistolPatch]

Thanks for another detailed post Pint as well as the recommendations. I was actually about to buy the 150 Clones book which I was going to use as a starting point to brewing lagers. Being new to AG and far more interested in lagers than ales, I'm finding it very difficult to identify the hops and grains etc that I love.

My thinking was that for the beginner, having a clone book would enable them to identify what hops and grains are used in various beers beers they enjoy, and then take bits from each recipe to make their own or start with a clone of a beer they really enjoy, brew it and then make gradual changes to improve it.

When people write in tasting notes something like, 'the [whatever] hops really come through,' that doesn't help me much as I have no idea what the hop they are referring to smells or tastes like. To be any help to me as a beginner, the craft-brewer would have to write in their notes something like, 'similar hop aroma to Bitburger Pils.'

It seems to me that the lagers are harder to find recipes for than the ales. Given the above i.e. my limited ability to understand tasting notes, do you or anyone else still think it would not be a good idea to purchase the clone book as something to get the ball rolling?

Cheers
PP

P.S. Will definitely get the Noonan book thanks Pint.

 

[Mr Bond]

Another angle that i find helps is the PM function on this here forum.

Thinking about a style?Search it up till u find a thread.You will soon identify the brewers who have beenplaying with or mastered this style.Send em a PM and watch the helpful tips and sharing of experience flow.
The ingredients they use are locally available which makes it far easier than converting/subbing american stuff,and the measurements are metric.And if you are really lucky they may just live within cooee of you and be up for tastings/swaps.

I still pester the weizguy with"what abouts" and your opinion sought"

Dave

 

[pint of lager]

PP, I think you will be disappointed with a clone brews style book. Better to spend the money on Noonan. Ray Daniels too if you can stretch the budget.

To discover what hops are in different brews, fire google up. Lots of results using different combinations words like bitburger, hops, variety, recipe, clone etc. One link that comes up for Bitburger is BYO clone style recipe.

 

[AndrewQLD]

All above are good points, but I don't see how it's 'crap' in trying to clone a commercial beer.

Agreed that it's one of the two reasons why many get into HB'ing initially (apart from the old cheap piss line), but as the HB'er evolves as such, then his/her appreciation of good beer also evolves. They then tend to grow out of the mould of I want to replicate Crown, to I want to try and replicate something like Chimay or LCPA (look at how many attempts on this board alone have been undertaken with Jayse's base receipe).

A great commercial beer IMO is a very good level to try and aspire to. The Chimay and LCPA clones can evolve to a Trappist and APA style more to your enjoyment, however if you enjoy those beers now then why not try and improve your brewing knowledge to a point where they are comparible? Along the way you learn many lessons which you may then want to impart on your next receipe, making you a better brewer.

Cheers.

Everyone has some good points, but I tend to agree more with Duffs comments above. I remember in my early days of brewing, which led me to try more of the boutique style commercial brews, which led me to that catch cry phrase " I'd love to brew a beer like that".
Almost all the beers we attempt to brew are because of a taste of a commercial example at one stage or another, Take Wit beir for example, without being able to try the commercial samples like Hoegaarden ect we would not have a hope in knowing just what that beer should taste like.

I really think that trying to copy a Commercial example can lead to a better understanding of the effects different ingredients play in our brewing, because you are trying to copy something and it sometimes takes several attempts you learn to discern the differences that your adjustments make.

But, having said all that I tend to try to copy beers less and less now as my own tastes and experiences have changed my opinion as to what constitues a good commercial beer.
As far as books are concered, you can not have enough brew related literature, Designing Great beers, New Brewing Lager beers, Real Ales for the home brewer, the list goes on and on. I have to say though that the biggest disappointment I have had several years ago was my purchase of "Clone Brews" after 5 attempts at their clone recipes and none (although all nice beers) coming even close to their commercial counterparts :angry: I have given up on the book.

Sorry for the ramble.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Kai]

Almost all the beers we attempt to brew are because of a taste of a commercial example at one stage or another, Take Wit beir for example, without being able to try the commercial samples like Hoegaarden ect we would not have a hope in knowing just what that beer should taste like.

I have had surprising success brewing styles I have never tried before purely by reading style descriptions such as BJCP. But, I don't think we are on different pages. Try to brew a beer of similar style, yes. Do that and you'll probably be happy. Try to copy a beer and you might not be.

 

[PistolPatch]

Trying to spend less than two or three hundred dollaras per week on brewing (lol), so restrained myself and have just ordered, only, DGB (thanks Kong), New Brewing Lagers and the latest VicBrew booklet (thanks Pint). Thanks Andrew and Pint for the heads up on the Clone Beers book - saved $30.

I think you have the magic touch on Google Pint. Had tried Google already without much joy. Used your keywords though and immediately came up with a wealth of info e.g. BeerTools

Next I might take up Brau's great suggestion and PM AndrewQLD as I see he has a Vienna Lager recipe here on AHB.

Thanks all,
Pat

 

[Ross]

Trying to spend less than two or three hundred dollaras per week on brewing (lol), so restrained myself and have just ordered, only, DGB (thanks Kong), New Brewing Lagers and the latest VicBrew booklet (thanks Pint). Thanks Andrew and Pint for the heads up on the Clone Beers book - saved $30.

I think you have the magic touch on Google Pint. Had tried Google already without much joy. Used your keywords though and immediately came up with a wealth of info e.g. BeerTools

Next I might take up Brau's great suggestion and PM AndrewQLD as I see he has a Vienna Lager recipe here on AHB.

Thanks all,
Pat

PP - I've plenty of beer books here - various cloning books, Designing great beers, New brewing lager etc & you're more than welcome to borrow anytime.

Cheers Ross

 

[locost]

Got to admit I don't like the idea of cloning much. First there's the problem that my ingredients are unlikely to match the commercial version's exactly, then my equiment will never perform as their's does, and finally I'll have to compramise with the yeast more often than not.

As a brewer, I prefer to develop my version of my favourite styles. You know my session bitter recipe, my Wheat beer, my Pilsner and so on.

That said, I do let commercially available beers influence me as I design my beers and I do find clone recipes useful as gudance as to which specialy malts, adjuncts, hops, and yeast I should consider using.