When would you give up on a saison stalled at 1.014?

[Mr. No-Tip]

I put a Saison down 12 days ago and it's been pretty static for the last 5 days.

Here are the vital statistics:

• Standard saison grain bill - 75% pils, 7ish% each of wheat and Munich.
• Mashed at 50 for 10, 63 for 75, 67 for 30, 76 for 15.
• Pitched an active 2l starter of WLP568 - I am told and have experienced this yeast avoids stalling with the addition of the belgian yeast - last time it finished in four days. The yeast was out of date, but the starter was happy and growing.
• Oxygenated and pitched into 27l of 1.051 (nice and low for a table saison)
• Pitched at 21 and ramped up.
• Monster krausen in less than 12 hours, subsided krausen at 24 hours.
• 1.030 at day 3. Temp was about 24 by now.
• 1.014 at day 5 or 6. Temp was 27ish.
• Still 1.014 at day 12. Temp has been 30 for a good few days, with tilting of the fermenter here and there. Still cloudy but no visible signs of fermentation.

Now I know saisons sometimes stall in the 20s or 30s, but the blend aims to prevent that and this is stalled much lower. The out of date yeast could be to blame, but it did start and grow really well. Looking back at my mash schedule, maybe that is the vector. Perhaps unconverted starches from the 63 rest got caught up at 67? I changed from 90@63 and 15@67 (which I used last time) for some inexplicable reason at the last minute.

At this stage I am inclined to leave it till Monday night, taking us to 14 days, then kegging if it hasn't moved. The hydrometer sample does taste a bit full, of course, but I think I'd rather as full bodied OK saison than an oxidised one that may or may not lose that body. It's clearly no comp beer, but might be an ok drinker.

Has anyone else stalled so (relatively) low and had a saison pick up again?
Does anyone want to point out that my mash schedule could explan this?

 

[elcarter]

Mine stopped at 1.010 but it did start low at 1040.

3 days of absolutely nothing, glad I did the airlock over my preferred glad wrap so I can keep and eye on it.

Left it out of curiosity but more "couldn't be assed kegging it" and it's off again I think saisons like to play with you,

I fully expect when I bring out the keg it'll take off again..... if it stops.

 

[Jaded and Bitter]

Mr No,

I used the same blend twice and found that although the blend advertisers it overcomes the usual stall, it really doesnt' as the saison yeast still ticks along trying to ferfent to a dryer FG than the abby yeast. After two batches of gushers (both of which had 2-3 weeks in primary) and a slurry bottle which exploded in the fridge at ~3 degrees I stopped using this blend.

Others have had the same experience.

If you want to wrap it up by pitching another yeast try WYeast Roeslair or White Labs Flemish blend - if your brave. You wont be disappointed. But more on that another day.

 

[pk.sax]

Forget about it for a month from pitching date.

I have this hunch that continental saisons are substantially hopped specifically to protect them through these extended ferments. Each bottled saison I've tasted has been hoppier and bitter than Australian made saisons.

 

[manticle]

Either warm it up and forget about it or chuck some 3711 (active starter) at it.

Not going to cause your problem but mashing for 75 minutes at 63 won't leave muxh for the higher alpha rest.

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

Either warm it up and forget about it

How much higher would you suggest? 33? 35?

Thanks all for the input.

 

[Yob]

Either warm it up and forget about it or chuck some 3711 (active starter) at it.

Not going to cause your problem but mashing for 75 minutes at 63 won't leave muxh for the higher alpha rest.

Won't some of the starches have not been soluble at those temps? (63) as in, when raising the temps, more starch becomes available to be converted and as the Beta slows Alpha continues to work? Its not like all the starch is soluble at the lower temps yeah?

 

[manticle]

Alpha still works at 63 - just not favoured as much as beta. 75 mins is a long low mash and wouldn't be responsible for a 1014 finish for saison.

If it's the WL equivalent of the wy belgian strain, it doesn't sound unusual.

I believe the wy strain can easily cope with mid 30s.

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

On the mash temps, I recall doing a grav reading either side of the 67 rest. Gained about ten points during it...

 

[manticle]

Fair enough. I find with my beta rests that 15 minutes is the longest I need for beta to do its thing. Alpha gets roughly 40-45 minutes, with a glycoprotein rest at 72 for another 10.

Saison for example would be 62 for 15 minutes and using a yeast like 3711, I would expect 1006-1008.

Many other beers will get 10 minute beta rest and be finishing where I want them.

 

[pk.sax]

Just quit being a pussy with the Belgian and heat her up.

 

[Jaded and Bitter]

Farmhouse ales states up to 95F - 35 degrees for this yeast.

Just quit being a pussy with the Belgian and heat her up.

Yeah do it!

Or chuck Brett in it h34r:

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

Closing the loop on this for anyone who might read this thread with the same issue...

I ramped to 33/34 after the advice in this thread. When I came home a few days later there was some minor signs of reactivation - bubbles but not krausen. It dropped a few points, but some gravity readings up until I kegged it last night didn't result in any more drops.

Tasting it now, there's some less than dupont level saison character, it's a littel full in the mouth, and there's a definite soapy character. I am going with fatty acid breakdown. (http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html)

So for reference, my timeline was:

• Day 1. 1.051 OG, pitch oxygenation at 21.
• Day 2. Big krausen which subsided the same day.
• Day 3. 1.030 up to 24 degrees.
• Day 5. 1.014 up to 27 degrees.
• Day 12. 1.014 up to 30 degrees.
• Day 17. 1.012 up to 35 degrees.
• Day 21. 1.012 and crash chilled.
• Day 24. Kegged and soapy.

Maybe it will improve in the keg, but I am not holding my breath. If I had my time again I'd have kegged at day 12 or so. Not trying to say this will happen to everyone, but just my experiences shared...

 

[lmccrone]

well before heating up the strike water!