What's With The Distinctive Flavour/aroma? In German Lagers?

[grinder]

After drinking all sorts of German brews, not just lagers. I have noticed in almost every one of them there is a very distinctive flavour (or Aroma??) to them. Unlike any other beers that I have tried.
I cannot give an accurate description on the flavour/aroma but anyone who has drank a german lager eg, Bitburger, Hansa, konig and heaps more I can't think of ATM, Will know what I am talking about.

Anyway, I am putting down an AG german Pilsener recipe this saturday and am looking for any tips on replicating this German brew characteristic in my brew.

Here's what ingedients I will be using:

5.5kg Weyerrman pilsener grain
a small amount of vienna (JWM)
About 300 gms of carapils (JWM)

I have a WLP800 German Lager yeast ( 1.5 ltr starter)

Simple infusion mash around 65 deg 60 mins.

Halletau hops for bittering to around 38 IBU's
Tettnanger hops for flavour and aroma.

Temp controlled ferment @ 10 deg for 2 weeks
Diacetyl rest for 2 days @ room temp

Dropping to around 0 deg

Filtering then drinking

Any advise welcome.
Cheers

 

[Guest Lurker]

a small amount of vienna (JWM)
...
Any advise welcome.
Cheers

First advice would be that if you have got to the point where you have a specific flavour that you want to reproduce, then you also need to be at the point where you meticulously record what you do and how you add it, so that you gain an understanding of what changes you made had what influence on the flavour. If you do four different versions with "a small amount" of vienna, how do you know how much you used in the one that tasted best?

 

[grinder]

Point taken, But read my questions again and some relevent info would be good. Thanks

 

[Muggus]

Noble German hops definately play a part in the grand scheme of things. Besides that, I think a good cool 'lagering' period, particularly for lagers and kolsch-style biers, helps give the beer that typical 'clean' German characteristic.
I guess the more authentic German ingredients, ie malts and yeast, you use will also help.

 

[jayse]

Your recipe ideas look pretty good, the key is in those hops you have there and getting what you add to the kettle to come up into the final brew in the glass.

Trying to think of some AHB names to drop of those who have been known to brew a great german pils and Ray mills i think is coming to mind, sorry to name drop Ray.

Anyway plenty of hops and good fresh hops! are the hops we get as homebrewers in aus as good as the hops they get first pick at? maybe something to think about.
Good clean fermentation, heathy yeast very cool ferment and all that.

There can be a little sweet grainy pils malt in the aroma and thats it besides the hops really.

Get you batch down as its looking now and go from there is all I can really put foward.

Its a good question really and the answer really is doing the hard yards as a brewer and getting everything perfect from the yeast heath to the wort production. Recipe amounts of this that and the other are only a good part of it the rest is in your hands.

Good luck, the hops and clean ferment!!!!!!!!!
Jayse

 

[grinder]

Thanks Jayse.
I was also talking to the brewer assistant at Potters brewery and he said that the aroma that I am talking about could be DMS. Is this chemical apparent in german brews?

 

[Adamt]

DMS smells like cooked vegetables/unwiped arseholes. Not pleasant. I believe pilsener malt is prone to producing DMS in the boil, however with adequate ventilation (i.e. no lid on the kettle) it is driven off.

 

[jayse]

Thanks Jayse.
I was also talking to the brewer assistant at Potters brewery and he said that the aroma that I am talking about could be DMS. Is this chemical apparent in german brews?

Yes a lot of the german styles with a pilsner malt base do have/ or can have low level DMS and it is certainly part of those style in low levels but from your post I didn't think it was this your were trying to get. Its not ussually something that i would say sticks out at all like the spicey floral hops or grainy/sweet malt.

In all german light coloured lager cases' the DMS is a low background note, this may be what your picking up but I thinking/leaning more toward getting the finishing hop character into the glass is more important and what your after.

 

[Zwickel]

Hello grinder,
your recipe looks pretty good, there is only one point I wouldnt agree:

Simple infusion mash around 65 deg 60 mins.

From my point of view, a single infusion mash is matching pretty well to Ales, but not to Pilsener and/or Lagers.
The German beers are made by a stepping mash, guess 99% of all Pilseners and Lagers.

Recently we had a discussion here on AHB about this matter and Ive made a Pilsener the Australian way (single infusion) just for comparison, this coming weekend Ill write down the results.
The beer is now 4 weeks cold conditioned and ready for the comparison.

So far I can say already: Its a big difference.

Cheers :icon_cheers:

 

[Screwtop]

After drinking all sorts of German brews, not just lagers. I have noticed in almost every one of them there is a very distinctive flavour (or Aroma??) to them. Unlike any other beers that I have tried.

Yep know exactly what you are speaking about, you mean the ummm ahhh kinda bready/wheetbix type (although that doesn't exactly describe the flavour/aroma). Weyermann Pils is the answer from my experience, never had this aroma from Aus Pils. Tasted a couple of beers made with Wey BoPils and found it even more pronounced. Using Zwickel's Pils mash schedule this is reduced somewhat in Pils made from Weyermann Malt.

 

[tangent]

these kind of beers smell and taste like melanoidin malt to me
with a very subtle noble hop but i like to think the flavour is actually from the bittering additions or very little flavour additions

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Ive got to say 38 IBUs and then your adding more hops for flavor and aroma which will add some more IBUs. Boy thats a lot of IBUs.I calculate my hop efficiencies at 35% for pellets and only use low to mid 20 IBU for my pils and they are bittered well.Try to step mash if you can it helps.
Cheers GB

 

[sinkas]

Its not cheesey, stale hop aroma that your enjoying is it?

 

[matti]

I have no real doubt that it is the melanodians and the german noble hops that make a difference.
I have not yet my self mastered the craft of a full decoction and would recommend to try a small batch or partial attempt if you did try.
Ensure theres plenty of elbow room if you do.
you can always add melanodian to main mash.

What does DMS really taste like???

Otherwise I think you basic recipe is sound.

 

[grinder]

Hello grinder,
your recipe looks pretty good, there is only one point I wouldnt agree:
From my point of view, a single infusion mash is matching pretty well to Ales, but not to Pilsener and/or Lagers.
The German beers are made by a stepping mash, guess 99% of all Pilseners and Lagers.

Recently we had a discussion here on AHB about this matter and Ive made a Pilsener the Australian way (single infusion) just for comparison, this coming weekend Ill write down the results.
The beer is now 4 weeks cold conditioned and ready for the comparison.

So far I can say already: Its a big difference.

Cheers :icon_cheers:

What temps and rests should I use with a step mash for thw grain I am using?

 

[JSB]

All Weyermann malts in my experience go along way in assisting to build a Greman Pils.....Pils beers that were drunk on my last trip to Germany, you almost get that raw bready/mash aromoa......

Cheers
JSB

 

[bigfridge]

What does DMS really taste like???

Grab a bottle of Miller Genuine Draft and the slick taste is all DMS.

 

[mfdes]

I found something interesting:

I used to detect an "imported continental pilsner flavour", which I eventually grew to think was a characteristic of the style, maybe from the noble hops, maybe from the decoction. The funny thing is that local brews made with the same ingredients and process didn't have it.
What's more when I was travelling in Europe I drank many of those beers (Budejovice Budvar, PU, DAB, Bitburger, etc...) and the flavour wasn't there.

It so happens I was drinking (over here) stale old beer that had been sitting in the light for quite a while, often in green and clear bottles. Many of these are also pasteurised extra long for the export market (60 minutes rather than 15). I found some fresh DAB in a can recenty and it was by far the freshest german pils I've ever tasted, with none of that "imported flavour". Talking to people I found quite a few others have associated stale flavour with imported beer.

Moral of the story: Check the batch date (or use-by date) on your imports, and buy cans in preference to bottles. The difference can boggle the mind.

MFS.

 

[Rod]

It would be interesting to get some "bland or low flavour " beer and be able to add

certain flavours so it would be possible to identify different profiles

keep it simple

a bit of hops , different sorts and compare

a bit of grain , different sorts etc

so then you could be definitive and say that flavour is from that hops

( after seeing some recipes suggested in this forum made to match a commercial product and find many varying types of hops being recommended)

I have been on panels before in the dairy industry where this is done to indentify when certain grasses give different flavours

 

[Zwickel]

I found something interesting:

I used to detect an "imported continental pilsner flavour", which I eventually grew to think was a characteristic of the style, maybe from the noble hops, maybe from the decoction. The funny thing is that local brews made with the same ingredients and process didn't have it.
What's more when I was travelling in Europe I drank many of those beers (Budejovice Budvar, PU, DAB, Bitburger, etc...) and the flavour wasn't there.

It so happens I was drinking (over here) stale old beer that had been sitting in the light for quite a while, often in green and clear bottles. Many of these are also pasteurised extra long for the export market (60 minutes rather than 15). I found some fresh DAB in a can recenty and it was by far the freshest german pils I've ever tasted, with none of that "imported flavour". Talking to people I found quite a few others have associated stale flavour with imported beer.

Moral of the story: Check the batch date (or use-by date) on your imports, and buy cans in preference to bottles. The difference can boggle the mind.

MFS.

gday mates,
thats really an interesting point, I thought almost the same when I tried a Bitburger in Aus. Beside my homebrew, Bitburger is my favorite local beer here and when I had a Bitburger in Australia it tasted much different to what I was used to.

Another point of view is, that many brands are brewed under license at different places, you should have an eye on it. For example if you gonna buy a Fosters here in G, certainly its brewed in South Germany under license. I can hardly believe its made by original ingredients from Australia.

nevertheless Ill post my mash schedule again

What temps and rests should I use with a step mash for thw grain I am using?

as other members of AHB wrote, just try to get Weyermann malt.

mash in at 35C
step up to 52C, rest for 20min.
heat up to 63C, rest for 30-45 min., depends on how dry youd like your beer to be
heat up to 72C, rest for 20-30 min.
heat up to 78C and mash out.

Id say, if youre going to use Weyermann malt together wit that mash schedule, you cant be wrong.

Cheers :icon_cheers: