What/how Acid Addition For Mash Ph Adjustment?

[Wolfy]

Melbourne water plus (pretty much) 100% pale base malt, means that my mash will be slightly above the 'optimal' pH range.
(According to Palmer's spread-sheet, Tony Wheeler's "Key Concepts in Water Treatment.pdf" and the calculations in "Designing Great Beers" - so most likely that assumption is correct.)

Adding 20g+ of salts is not an option and I'm not really into the '5.2 stabilizer' stuff so that's out too.
An acid rest is something I can try but (from what I've read) may not be that useful.
Leaving direct addition of some acid as the only other option.

I have some Citric Acid (this stuff from G&G) but it does not mention concentration or any useful information on usage (also a little concerned about any flavors it may impart).
Lactic acid is out, and I have no idea where/how to get other (non-flavoured) acids like the Hydrochloric mentioned in Palmer's spread-sheet.

So in the end, I'm really not sure what to do, so am seeking any/all helpful advice.

Also some pointers on pH calculations would be nice (too long since highschool chemistry), how much acid is needed for pH changes, and how to calculate resultant pH when adding two different pH liquids would be nice to add to my spread-sheet.

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions.

 

[Fourstar]

shouldnt adding some hardness in the form on Ca get your pH down just a tad?

 

[Maple]

Adding 20g+ of salts is not an option and I'm not really into the '5.2 stabilizer' stuff so that's out too.

Can I ask why salt additions are out? how do you manage the optimum Calcium levels without this?

 

[gap]

How about a small quantity of acidulated malt??

Regards

Graeme

 

[RobW]

For pale beers I usually add a teaspoon of citric acid (the supermarket stuff) to the mash but I don't measure pH so I can't give you an empirical answer. They turn out OK though :icon_cheers:

 

[kevin_smevin]

lactic acid is fine. It is what is produced when doing an acid rest as far as i know. Its also the acid that will lower the pH when using acidulated malt, which is the only way to add acid under the German Purity law if thats what your after.

Grain and grape also sell phosphoric acid which is ok but i do remember reading something somewhere that it is not ideal, but cant remember why.

I have found that using very pale malts and Melbourne water i need to add acid to the mash. Try about 1ml of acid per 10L of water in your mash. This should get you in your ball park even when using 100ppm Ca (which i strongly recommend in any beer).

 

[eamonnfoley]

How about a small quantity of acidulated malt??

Regards

Graeme

+1 People say you can taste it but I use 5% and sometimes more in my fairly alkaline perth water with no problem.

 

[hefevice]

Melbourne water plus (pretty much) 100% pale base malt, means that my mash will be slightly above the 'optimal' pH range.
(According to Palmer's spread-sheet, Tony Wheeler's "Key Concepts in Water Treatment.pdf" and the calculations in "Designing Great Beers" - so most likely that assumption is correct.)

Adding 20g+ of salts is not an option and I'm not really into the '5.2 stabilizer' stuff so that's out too.
An acid rest is something I can try but (from what I've read) may not be that useful.
Leaving direct addition of some acid as the only other option.

I have some Citric Acid (this stuff from G&G) but it does not mention concentration or any useful information on usage (also a little concerned about any flavors it may impart).
Lactic acid is out, and I have no idea where/how to get other (non-flavoured) acids like the Hydrochloric mentioned in Palmer's spread-sheet.

So in the end, I'm really not sure what to do, so am seeking any/all helpful advice.

Also some pointers on pH calculations would be nice (too long since highschool chemistry), how much acid is needed for pH changes, and how to calculate resultant pH when adding two different pH liquids would be nice to add to my spread-sheet.

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions.

How do you arrive at 20g+ of salts (what size batches are you doing)? You shouldn't need that much for a 20l batch, even with Melbourne's soft water.

I would have another look at the salt addition calculations. I would also set up a test mash to verify whether there actually is a pH problem.

If you feel you must adjust pH with citric, then the amount will depend not on the pH of your existing water, but the amount of buffering ions in the water, so calculations are probably pointless. Best way is to titrate a small measured quantity of water with citric acid (i.e add small measured amounts of acid until the pH is in the desired range), then scale up. However given the complex buffering interactions of salts in the mash, the measured pH of the water is only a small part of the picture. Acid adjustments for pH are probably best done for sparge water where the water source is particularly alkaline (and drives the pH up to high as the concentration of the mash decreases during sparging, thus extracting tannins from the grain husks).

You really need to get the salts right. Also, Calcium (which will tend to lower the pH of the mash) is very important for precipitation of undesired long chain proteins and polyphenols in the boil, as well as yeast health during fermentation. You should aim to have at least 50ppm for yeast health alone.

Finally, when calculating the amount of salts required for the mash, use only the volume of your strike/mash water, not the total batch volume. Once you have the mash chemistry right, if you want to adjust for other taste factors (like bitterness perception using SO4 or malt perception using Cl), then add the remaining salts to the boil.

 

[Wolfy]

Thanks for the replies, and sorry for any confusion in my OP, I was trying to be concise rather than give an essay-type-description.
I didn't mean to indicate that there would be no salt additions, just that by using salts ONLY I'd still be above the target pH.

Recipe is for 24L, and using 3g Calcium Sulfate, 6g Calcium Chloride and 0.5g Epsom Salts will supply the required Calcium and give the Chloride to Sulfate ratio that I'm looking for.

However using Kolbach's equation and the info from Tony's .pdf, the mash PH is still going to be slightly higher than I'd like.
Adding both the Calcium Chloride and Epsom Salts (since both of these will lower PH) to the 17.5L of mash-water gives a predicted pH of 5.64 (adjusted for the touch of amber malt), the Calcium Sulfate would raise the mash pH so it can go in the kettle.
Tony also suggests "acid rest and/or acid addition" for such pale coloured beer in his very detailed Melborne-water related .pdf and I'm fairly confident he knows what he's talking about.

As a result using ONLY salts to adjust the pH down further is going to require much larger quantities than the those indicated above (much close to 20g+ that I indicated in the OP), and I don't want to do that for obvious reasons.

Being lactose-intolerant I'm trying to stay away from anything 'lactic', so that's the only reason I'd not want to use Lactic Acid (even if it might be fine to use).

Which still leaves me with either the hope that an Acid Rest will create just enough to slightly lower the pH or to add additional acid to the mash.
Adding the salts to the mash, performing the Acid Rest and then testing the pH is the logical thing to do.
But I'd like to take the time now to work out the acid addition information now rather than in a panic if the while mashing - else I might end up just taking RobW's approach and tossing random amounts of Citric in.

 

[fraser_john]

I am lactose intolerant as well and have used lactic acid in the past to no ill effect. I have however switched to citric acid and just add a pinch at a time to the mash until I get the pH I need AFTER salt additions. Usually only needs a pinch or two.

Someone asked about why not to use phosphoric acid.....it drops calcium out of solution and hence messes further with the ions in the mash than you would want.

 

[RobW]

else I might end up just taking RobW's approach and tossing random amounts of Citric in.

Hey, not random!
I always use the same teaspoon

 

[newguy]

I have used lactic acid in the past but am now using phosphoric acid as it's easy for me to get. I read some time ago that phosphoric is best (speaking of flavour), then lactic, then citric. If there is a soft drink plant nearby (pepsi, coke), they'll have phosphoric acid and might be talked into parting with 100ml once you tell them what it's for. Same goes for any local breweries - most will use some sort of acid for pH adjustment. If you can't find any small amounts locally, look into doing a bulk buy to split with other local homebrewers. Any chemical vendor should be able to source food grade phosphoric acid for you.

Regarding how much to use, you'll need to add some, test, add some more, etc until you get it right. Once you know how much you'll need, you'll use pretty much the same amount for every batch after that. The biggest influence is the amount of darker malts in your grist. For example, I use about 62l of water for a normal 1.050ish batch and if I'm using 100% pale malts I add 6ml of acid to my water. On the other end of the scale, if I'm brewing a stout, I'll add about 4ml.

 

[Yob]

this shet's been doing my head in for the last few days... I keep on filling my shopping cart with stuff then deleting it all, reading more... and repeat...

from what I understand thus far..

Melbourne water requires Calcium. Thats a given.

So from the reading that Ive done.. CaCl is good "for all beer styles" and CaSo4 "for pale beers only, especially if hoppy and Bitter and a crisp dry character is required" which sounds like my brewing down to a "T"

The direction Im heading in is some Calcium Chloride, Calcium Sulphate and Citric Acid to tweak down if required... and a digital effing PH Meter... effing PH strips give me the shets...

<_<


...more reading required...

Yob

 

[felten]

I probably link this thread often but I reckon it's well worth a read. AJ Delange is a water chemistry encyclopedia.

 

[drsmurto]

Thanks for the replies, and sorry for any confusion in my OP, I was trying to be concise rather than give an essay-type-description.
I didn't mean to indicate that there would be no salt additions, just that by using salts ONLY I'd still be above the target pH.

Recipe is for 24L, and using 3g Calcium Sulfate, 6g Calcium Chloride and 0.5g Epsom Salts will supply the required Calcium and give the Chloride to Sulfate ratio that I'm looking for.

However using Kolbach's equation and the info from Tony's .pdf, the mash PH is still going to be slightly higher than I'd like.
Adding both the Calcium Chloride and Epsom Salts (since both of these will lower PH) to the 17.5L of mash-water gives a predicted pH of 5.64 (adjusted for the touch of amber malt), the Calcium Sulfate would raise the mash pH so it can go in the kettle.
Tony also suggests "acid rest and/or acid addition" for such pale coloured beer in his very detailed Melborne-water related .pdf and I'm fairly confident he knows what he's talking about.

As a result using ONLY salts to adjust the pH down further is going to require much larger quantities than the those indicated above (much close to 20g+ that I indicated in the OP), and I don't want to do that for obvious reasons.

Being lactose-intolerant I'm trying to stay away from anything 'lactic', so that's the only reason I'd not want to use Lactic Acid (even if it might be fine to use).

Which still leaves me with either the hope that an Acid Rest will create just enough to slightly lower the pH or to add additional acid to the mash.
Adding the salts to the mash, performing the Acid Rest and then testing the pH is the logical thing to do.
But I'd like to take the time now to work out the acid addition information now rather than in a panic if the while mashing - else I might end up just taking RobW's approach and tossing random amounts of Citric in.

:huh:

I am hoping that given this is 2 years old you have learned in that time that CaSO₄ does not raise pH.

 

[Wolfy]

this shet's been doing my head in for the last few days... I keep on filling my shopping cart with stuff then deleting it all, reading more... and repeat...
...
The direction Im heading in is some Calcium Chloride, Calcium Sulphate and Citric Acid to tweak down if required... and a digital effing PH Meter... effing PH strips give me the shets.
...

All you'll ever need is Calcium Chloride, Calcium Sulphate, Calcium Carbonate, combined with Bicarb Soda, Epsom salt and salt (which you likely have at home).
Buying 1 pack of each will likely last you for many years.
But from what I understand other acids (Lactic, Hydrocoloric) are better choices than citric, since some people suggest they can taste it when used (and lactic can be naturally found/formed in the malt).

No need to fill your shopping cart either, just pick them up on the weekend.

@DrSmurto, I'm a slow learner, but tend not to stress too much about it all now.

 

[ekul]

I use phosphoric acid that i bought from G&G. Have been using it to lower my mash pH, hadn't thought about it interfering with my calcium levels though.

Also, lactic acid and lactose are two completely different things, so even if you are lactose intolerant you can quite safely consume lactic acid.

 

[manticle]

I think he means calcium sulfate will drop pH, not raise it (well the calcium part of it will anyway)