Water Guru's

[WarmBeer]

You could always mix them with a known quantity of water and measure it out in milliliters, ala in the 'key concepts in water treatment' PDF.

Yes, good solution (pun intended), and I have read 'Key concepts...', but it is predicated on diluting a known, and accurate, amount of salts into a known volume of water.

 

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Hi all,

If you are after a nice and easy introduction to water chemistry additions then I recommend Graham Wheeler's book, "Brew Your Own British Real Ale".

It gives calculations and weights which are aimed at the home brewer specifically, and the instructions are very easy to follow.

I do recall reading one text that said carbonate can have a mellowing effect when brewing with dark grains. There was no reference to what the level should be to acheive this however, and every other reference that I have come accross says exactly what Thirsty Boy has already pointed out. i.e. alkalinity is bad for many reasons including, but not limited to; poor enzyme activity, extraction of unwanted (harsh tasting) material from the grain, issues with wort clarity and also finished beer clarity/stability.

I think the trick to adding carbonate is that you need to balance it with enough calcium to counteract the negative effects of the alkaline buffering you get.

Keep us posted on the results of your brew Bulp. I will be watching with interest.

Cheers!

 

[benno1973]

Not having gram accurate scales, how many teaspoons (roughly) to a gram for CaSO4, or CaCl2?

There's a water chemistry calulcator on Brewer's Friend that says
4.0g = 1tsp CaSO4
3.4g = 1tsp CaCl2

 

[BjornJ]

Interesting thread!
I also play with the water additions for my beers, putting the Sydney Prospect water values in the online Nomograph and flicking through Palmer to stay within "ok" values.

I thought I more or less had this covered to a level where it works like this
-for a dark beer I will need to add chalk/baking soda so the mash pH is not too low
-for a light beer I will add CaCl and gypsum/epsom to reduce the pH enough as the base malt alone is not enough.
-then I will add salts until hitting "ok" values from palmer, as in always try to be between 50-150 for Ca, below 150 for bicarbonate.

At the moment I am playing with a Porter recipe and as that means I am worried (maybe not worried, but.. concerned?) that my recipe has a lot of dark grains. The dark grains will bring down the mash pH, being acidic. To counter this I am adding chalk and baking soda, but this increases bicarbonate. I have a vague understanding of this being bad, but have until now been thinking that it is better to increase the bicarbonates than get the too low mash pH.

In addition to this I have been thinking that it is better to mess with mash pH through water additions than through acid as the water additions do both; pH and adjust mineral levels. and everywhere I read I seem to learn that having a bit more calcium than the 14.5 we have in Sydney is good.

I think my beers have become much clearer after starting to play with the water additions.

I must admit I thought the nomograph was the "truth" as in giving the right values for the different colours?

But would it be better to make say a porter without adding the bicarbonates through chalk/baking soda and take the lower pH?

thanks
Bjorn

 

[felten]

Yes, good solution (pun intended), and I have read 'Key concepts...', but it is predicated on diluting a known, and accurate, amount of salts into a known volume of water.

Good point, I bought mine in 100g packets from G&G so there was no need to measure.

I must admit I thought the nomograph was the "truth" as in giving the right values for the different colours?

If you read the small print on palmers spreadsheet version it says:

"Remember, roastier grain bills will have a higher acidity than grain bills composed of caramel and toasted malts. Look at the range of RA present and choose a number that you feel is appropriate to the style of beer you want to brew. For example, if the target beer color is 10 SRM (20 EBC), the RA range is 0-60. Water with an RA close to zero will create a lower, more acidic mash pH, probably around 5.4 @ 20C. Water with an RA closer to 60 will create a higher, less acidic mash pH, probably around 5.8 @ 20C."

So you could get the same SRM with a quantity of roasted malts, or with a diff quantity of crystal malts; but the mash pH might be a lot different.

 

[Sammus]

I use Palmers spreadsheet to get his guestimated RA for the colour of beer I'm doing. I also use beersmith to figure out what salts need adding if I'm trying to emulate a certain water profile. I basically add as little to the mash as I can to get the right RA, then the rest to the boil.

That often involves adding lots of CaCO3 and NaHCO3 for darker beers... nothing bad has happened yet...in fact, I got a 10% jump in efficiency, and the past couple beers (only been doing this for a couple of brews so far) are the best I've ever made. No repeat recipes though to compare, I have way too much I want to try to waste time repeating recipes

 

[kevin_smevin]

Interesting thread!
I also play with the water additions for my beers, putting the Sydney Prospect water values in the online Nomograph and flicking through Palmer to stay within "ok" values.

I thought I more or less had this covered to a level where it works like this
-for a dark beer I will need to add chalk/baking soda so the mash pH is not too low
-for a light beer I will add CaCl and gypsum/epsom to reduce the pH enough as the base malt alone is not enough.
-then I will add salts until hitting "ok" values from palmer, as in always try to be between 50-150 for Ca, below 150 for bicarbonate.

At the moment I am playing with a Porter recipe and as that means I am worried (maybe not worried, but.. concerned?) that my recipe has a lot of dark grains. The dark grains will bring down the mash pH, being acidic. To counter this I am adding chalk and baking soda, but this increases bicarbonate. I have a vague understanding of this being bad, but have until now been thinking that it is better to increase the bicarbonates than get the too low mash pH.

In addition to this I have been thinking that it is better to mess with mash pH through water additions than through acid as the water additions do both; pH and adjust mineral levels. and everywhere I read I seem to learn that having a bit more calcium than the 14.5 we have in Sydney is good.

I think my beers have become much clearer after starting to play with the water additions.

I must admit I thought the nomograph was the "truth" as in giving the right values for the different colours?

But would it be better to make say a porter without adding the bicarbonates through chalk/baking soda and take the lower pH?

thanks
Bjorn

Lower pH is much more desirable then high pH so i'd be going down the bath of not adding too much carbonate. TB says that in his experience bicarb is not nice in beer so probably stick to chalk. I'd try and stick below 50ppm CO3 and see how you go. pH lower then 5.2 will inhibit lipoxygenase enzymes which play a large role in staling of beer. So keep your pH <5.2 and your shelf life will be longer, in theory anyway. I'm sure shelf life isn't a problem for most of us on this forum though

The clearness of your beers i would put down to Ca additions. I have noticed since adding Ca my wort comes out much clearer and my efficiency increased almost 10%. Ca thermally protects enzymes in your mash which would explain the increase in efficiency. It also aids in proteins precipitation, hence the clearer beers.

Like TB said earlier, you can read loads and come up with the text book theoretical water chemistry but you probably still have to play around with a little to get the profile you want in your beers.

Let us all know what you decide with your porter and how it turns out.

 

[Fourstar]

Quick question:

Not having gram accurate scales, how many teaspoons (roughly) to a gram for CaSO4, or CaCl2?
They are granulated differently, so I imagine they will have difference volume for the same mass.
Is "teaspoon" accuracy going to be accurate enough? Not trying to get a perfect water profile match here, just trying to accentuate specific characters in my beers. Given I should be using the same (Melbourne) water profile, should these give a good rule of thumb?
Cheers.

There's a water chemistry calulcator on Brewer's Friend that says
4.0g = 1tsp CaSO4
3.4g = 1tsp CaCl2

From memory i think thats about right of grabbing household 'teaspoon' and popping in a 'measured' amount. i woudl have said 4.5-5g for CaSO4 and 3-4g for CaCl2

Warmbeer,

unless your teaspoon is a tablespoon and you are not adding heaped amounts, you should be fine. Even so, an exuberant measure on a household teaspoon overall in 23L final volume wont be excessive. Probably the 100-150ppm ranges~ I would dose my full volume of water though, to ensure my mineral levels are not through the roof on the mash.

Hi Fourstar. I always assumed that the Cl/SO4 balance would effect the flavour by altering the brewing process somehow. Your tip to dissolve some CaCl2 into your finished beers would suggest otherwise. To be honest, i've never actually thought to much about how this balance effects the flavour. Interested to know more.

Cl is known to heighten malt flavours and increase fullness. Have you ever popped a flake in your mouth? That warmness you get, i can only assume it does something (insert science guy here) to the malt profile to heighten it. Much like sodium does as well.

Try it, ive done it before with a Munich Dunkel and i noticed a difference. It wil dissolve readily as well due to the low pH. B)

 

[NickB]

OK, gonna tack my question onto this thread rather than opening another:

I brew exclusively with tank water, which makes for fantastic Lagers and Pilseners. I do however find that some of my darker beers (amber and darker) have a slight harshness to them that I can only attribute to my water. I also would like to work on accentuating certain flavours in beers (ie: hop flavour/aroma in APA/IPA, maltiness in a Bock etc)

I've tried deciphering the many texts and nomographs etc on the net, but my brain just doesn't cope that well with mind-boggling chemistry....

So, can any experts on water advise what I should do regarding additions for a few styles, specifically looking at Vienna Lager, English Bitter, English IPA, American APA/IPA and Stout....

Any help greatly appreciated



Cheers

 

[benno1973]

The clearness of your beers i would put down to Ca additions. I have noticed since adding Ca my wort comes out much clearer and my efficiency increased almost 10%. Ca thermally protects enzymes in your mash which would explain the increase in efficiency. It also aids in proteins precipitation, hence the clearer beers.

Does that mean that boiling your water before brewing to remove temporary hardness may result in cloudier beers? I haven't thought too long about it, but assuming that the CO3- conc. > Ca+ conc, you'd precipitate out all the Ca+ (leaving some residual alkalinity), and this could result in cloudier beer? So you'd want to add back some CaSo4 or CaCl to replace the calcium?

 

[hoppinmad]

OK, gonna tack my question onto this thread rather than opening another:

I brew exclusively with tank water, which makes for fantastic Lagers and Pilseners. I do however find that some of my darker beers (amber and darker) have a slight harshness to them that I can only attribute to my water. I also would like to work on accentuating certain flavours in beers (ie: hop flavour/aroma in APA/IPA, maltiness in a Bock etc)

I've tried deciphering the many texts and nomographs etc on the net, but my brain just doesn't cope that well with mind-boggling chemistry....

So, can any experts on water advise what I should do regarding additions for a few styles, specifically looking at Vienna Lager, English Bitter, English IPA, American APA/IPA and Stout....

Any help greatly appreciated



Cheers

You can confidently direct most of your water questions to fourstar, but i do recommend you listen to the waterganza/gasm on the brewing network.

link

Show 3 runs you through a few difference styles, from German pilsener to dry stout. Not sure I agree with his recommendation on the ESB water additions, but you will develop a better understanding of the importance of water treatment to your beers

 

[manticle]

Someone should start a wiki article on water additions.

There's a lot of conflicting information including the idea that you match the water profile to a famous brewing area from 1864 or somesuch (which I understand to be a furphy).

 

[Fourstar]

You can confidently direct most of your water questions to fourstar, but i do recommend you listen to the waterganza/gasm on the brewing network.

I wouldnt say im the best person to speak to but i know enough to get me by!

Nick,

I assume this water is rain water and not bore water thats been tanked? If its rain water it should be quite pure and devoid of most minerals, however rain water is quite acidic, 5~pH if i remember correctly. So Once it hits your roof it usually gets closer to neutral 6~ whilst it soaks up whatever is up there. What is your tank made out of? This might also be affecting the palate?!

Considering its dark/er beers you are having issues with, i'd look at brewing a beer without the dark malts in the mash and add them at sparge if its convesrion probalems or bolstering the mash with a taspoon or two of CaCl or CaSO4 might also help

Do you notice any efficiency issues with darker beers? Maybe the starting pH is too low and the extra acid from the dark grains is wreaking havoc on your mash pH and driving it below the mid 5's? (just guesswork and probabaly looking too far into it.)

Also, a dash of CaSO4 did my higher hopped beers wonders. i always found high hopping to be rough and edgy until i started adding sulfates. It will also aid in flocculation as well due to the extra calcium, this will help the yeast drop out any excessive hop oils/resins that usually attribute a hoppy harshness too. Or you can filter. that works wonders as well!

 

[NickB]

Thanks 4*,

Yes, it is rainwater I use, and it's stored in poly tanks, so I don't think I'd be getting any off flavours from there. We have very few trees anywhere near our house (top of a hill) so don't get much gunk in the gutters, so I would imaging it's pretty pure.

With the dark beers, I have considered adding the dark grains at mashout, but have yet to try it. Efficiency seems to hover around the 75% mark no matter what beer I brew, except for wheat beers where I'm getting closer to 70% for some reason.

I have some Gypsum at home, so will add some to the beer I'm brewing this week, not sure what recipe yet however.

I do filter my beers, but have never been happy with any of my APA or IPA attempts. Will try some Gypsum in them too.

I know in the dark beer you talk about buffering the mash, but are there any instances where you would add salts to the kettle instead or as well?

Cheers

 

[therook]

Thanks 4*,

Yes, it is rainwater I use, and it's stored in poly tanks, so I don't think I'd be getting any off flavours from there. We have very few trees anywhere near our house (top of a hill) so don't get much gunk in the gutters, so I would imaging it's pretty pure.

With the dark beers, I have considered adding the dark grains at mashout, but have yet to try it. Efficiency seems to hover around the 75% mark no matter what beer I brew, except for wheat beers where I'm getting closer to 70% for some reason.

I have some Gypsum at home, so will add some to the beer I'm brewing this week, not sure what recipe yet however.

I do filter my beers, but have never been happy with any of my APA or IPA attempts. Will try some Gypsum in them too.

I know in the dark beer you talk about buffering the mash, but are there any instances where you would add salts to the kettle instead or as well?

Cheers

Nick, i'm like you on Tank Water.

I always add my dark grains at mash out and my dark beers turn out okay IMHO

Rook

 

[Fourstar]

I know in the dark beer you talk about buffering the mash, but are there any instances where you would add salts to the kettle instead or as well?
Cheers

You could but there would be no gain (signifigant) from a pH or conversion perspective for a dark beer. I add salts to the kettle only to adjust the SO4 or Cl profile. Oh and to add Ca too!

If you are worried about buggering up your mash with your hoppy beers, just ad a tsp of gypsum to your kettle, there should be enough Ca and SO4 to make a difference to the profile, atleast on the hop front.

 

[NickB]

Awesome info, thanks Fourstar!

Will have a play with the Gypsum additions in the next couple of brews.

Rook: Does that include your stouts?

Cheers

 

[bulp]

Okay beer is done and dusted, The English Mild i have brewed had a couple of recipe flaws which were my fault (hop age issues) But i would have to say this beer and an english old ale i brewed after it have turned out great. The mild has a 30-40 % improvement in flavor, by which i mean the complexity of the malt flavor has increased and given the beer more depth, don't get me wrong there is still room for improvement but with this beer and the old ale i would say water chemistry definitely gives you at the very least a more complex malt and hop presence. Still playing around with the nomograph and from what I've experienced, depending on the type and amount of roast/toasted grains the PH of the mash can vary quite a bit, but at least i'm in the ball park and looking forward to my latest IPA batch to try.

Just a side note on mash PH, i always thought that PH strips gave different readings at room and mash temps but on the last beer i made the ph was the same at mash temp and at room temp any thoughts ?

 

[felten]

The braukaiser pH article says the same thing about the strips. BTW did you know you can cut the strips in half (or thirds h34r: ) lengthwise for extra value?

 

[Fourstar]

Okay beer is done and dusted, The English Mild i have brewed had a couple of recipe flaws which were my fault (hop age issues) But i would have to say this beer and an english old ale i brewed after it have turned out great.

So, what did you change? Add some CaCl2 to your mash or boil?