Water chem additions timing

[tubbsy]

I understand Calcium is beneficial in the mash and boil, but what about Mg, Chloride and Sulphate? I want to trial different salt additions, preferably on the same wort, and I was thinking of adding the bulk of the Ca with Calcium Lactate then adding differing amounts of CaCL2, MgSO4 and CaSO4 to each fermenter. Is that likely to cause any issues?

 

[MHB]

As long as you have enough Ca in the mash (50-100ppm minimum, I prefer around 150ppm for most beers) the rest probably won’t matter.

I think it’s fair to say that Cl and SO4 are flavouring or flavour affecting agents. Chloride mellows beer or some say make it maltier. Sulphate makes hops more pronounced or harsher at higher doses. A lot of people say SO4 makes the beer hoppier which isn’t really the case.
The Sulphate from MgSO4 is the same as the SO4 from its Calcium salt so I wouldn’t expect much of a difference from those two.
Calcium is king in water chemistry, there is an old adage in brewing that it takes 4 times as much Mg to do what Ca does, it can be used in the absence of enough Ca but the reactions involving Ca are preferred.
Probably keeping your total Sulphate and Chloride under 250ppm would be a good idea, likely to just get salty over that.
Mark

 

[MHB]

Been having a think about what you are trying to do.

If you made a middle of the road beer, not too bitter, dark, hoppy... I would think something like a Best Bitter. Or even choose an available beer like Coopers Pale ale, tho that will have additions of salts already.
Make it with enough Ca (say 150ppm of Ca) from Calcium Lactate. If you have enough Ca in your mash water you won’t be relying on the Ca added to the ferment. Brew it out as usual
Then make some stock solutions of your various salts. It would be pretty easy to pour a couple of glasses add say 100ppm of sulphate to one, the same of Chloride to another, leave a blank, taste all three, keep good notes.
Wait a couple of hours and try say 200ppm, again taste, keep notes, try blends of SO4 and Cl...
Important to wait a little between tastes; as you will get palate fatigue fairly quickly if you are looking for subtle changes

If you need a hand working out how much you need to weigh out for the stock solutions, let us know.
Mark

 

[tubbsy]

Thanks Mark. That sounds easier than making multiple beers. So I don't need to add much of the salt solutions I'll try and make them to 10,000ppm, so if I add 1.00mL to 100mL of beer I'll end up with 100ppm. Or there abouts. They won't be exactly 1% but I can figure it out easy enough. And luckily I have an adjustable 5mL macro pipette with a 0.005mL increments.

 

[MHB]

Sounds about what I was thinking
Just have to be careful the solubility of CaSO4 is only about 2.6g/L (2,6000ppm). I would make the stock well under the solubility limit of the least soluble salt and make both the same concentration.
Gypsum (CaSO4.2H2O) is just over 50% SO4 so a saturated solution would be ~1300ppm. I would probably make my stock around 1000ppm, then make the CaCl2 with the same Chloride content. So equal additions make equal contributions.
Be interested to hear how it works out for you.
Mark

 

[tubbsy]

Could I use K2SO4 instead of Gypsum for the sulphates given Gypsum's low solubility? Not sure what effect K will have though.

Just trying to avoid diluting the beer too much. Even a 1000ppm solution would need 10mL of the stock to 90mL of beer to result in 100ppm sulphate.

 

[tubbsy]

Epsom salts are probably a better alternative. A 10,000ppm sulphate solution it would also be 2,530ppm Mg, and that in a 1mL/100mL stock/beer solution would only be 25.3ppm Mg. What's the upper limit for Mg before it gives me the *****?

 

[yankinoz]

Epsom salts are probably a better alternative. A 10,000ppm sulphate solution it would also be 2,530ppm Mg, and that in a 1mL/100mL stock/beer solution would only be 25.3ppm Mg. What's the upper limit for Mg before it gives me the *****?abojut

I recall reading about a Belgian brewing water that had so much magnesium it blew out colons, but the concentration was over 150 ppm and it only affected heavy drinkers. The standard laxative dose of Epsom is 2-4 tsp, more than you'd likely add to a 20L barch.

 

[MHB]

If you got some distilled water to make up your stock solutions, you could add the same amount as you do for the stock solutions, so if you were adding 20mL of sulphate/Chloride stock; add 20mL of water to your blank beer.
That would keep all the samples at the same gravity (well - to half a dozen decimal places), the changes in flavour would then be down to the SO4/Cl not to the dilution.
If it’s too much dilution build your blank beer a bit stronger, have to do the numbers, but I think you would be better off using the salts you plan to brew with. Rather than introduce another variable.
Mark

 

[tubbsy]

Adding 10mL to all samples makes sense. So, my plan is to make 2 stock solutions....

Sulphate = 2.00g Gypsum + 2.27g Epsom into 1000mL = 2001ppm SO4, 466ppm Ca, 224ppm Mg
Chloride = 4.5g CaCl2 into 1000mL = 2002ppm Cl, 1132ppm Ca

I plan on using it to test 2 x 8L brews - a 29IBU Best Bitter and a 60IBU IPA. To each I'll be adding 10g of CaLac to give around 100ppm Ca in the 12L mash.