Unsaturated Fatty Acid as Oxy substitute

[peteru]

There would be no science without challenging the status quo. Back in the early days of brewing, it was all in the magic stick. It took a bloody eternity for someone to figure out that the magic stick was just a tool for inoculating the wort with the correct strain of yeast.

Just because a method is not employed on the mega-litre scale in commercial brewing does not mean it won't work at deca-litre home brewing scales. It just may be that the addition of FA is solving a problem that is negligible in commercial brewing, but possibly a significant factor in home brewing.

 

[MHB]

Yes to the first paragraph, that is almost exactly why science (even brewing science) works, think of it as the pursuit of an answer to the question "what is really going no here?"
I'm a big fan of this type of thinking, the storey of the magic brewing stick may be allegorical but the point is a fair one.

Your second paragraph I'm not so sure about, the science is fairly independent of scale - enzymes all work at the same temperatures, the same g/L of CO2 soluble in a 20L keg as in a 10kL tank...
The Hull Olive Oil Thesis is a part of brewing science, it looked at a possible solution to something that is a concern to brewers (yeast health) and oxidisation in beer. If it was really on balance beneficial it would I believe be embraced. There has been some follow up work but no sign of it being embraced by brewers anywhere. Far from it being a possible solution for small scale brewers, it is much more likely to be useful to people storing large quantities of yeast - big brewers.
I mean who here is having problems with the health of the yeast coming out of their yeast brink.
Mark

 

[huez]

I know your experiment isn't using actual olive oil but you'd think if it was a viable option companies like white labs or wyeast would have adopted it some how by now, They're storing and propagating more yeast than anyone else. No harm in doing the experiment though, information never hurt anyone.

Threads like this though end up re-igniting the olive oil myth among new home brewers. Most home brewers probably aren't aerating their wort enough in the first place, so they try the old pin drop of olive oil into the fermenter because they read on a forum that olive oil can replace oxygen in the fermenter. Their beer turns out similar or the same. They haven't improved it and they haven't made it worse, so it must work! Oxygen is relatively cheap and works.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Oxygen is relatively cheap and works.

Oleic acid is even cheaper, and it might work. Or it might not.

Tell you what, why don't I do an experiment to see?

 

[JDW81]

Oleic acid is even cheaper, and it might work. Or it might not.

Tell you what, why don't I do an experiment to see?

I hope you're going to use a statistically significant sample size, and be blinded to both arms of the experiment to remove any potential biases that may arise

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Yep, just like you did double blind crossover trials and used multicomponent ANOVA to work out which hops you like in your Pale Ale.

 

[JDW81]

I have done that of sorts. I make my mates brew APAs which I don't know the hop schedule, and use that guide what I like.

Perhaps not the most rigorous method, but I'm usually blind by the end of the night :kooi:

 

[Randai]

Maaan, ******* downers around. Just let him do his experiment without a ******* "I told you so" attitude. Okay if you're a bit more of a switch on brewer such as MHB then yeah I get you have probably got better input. But wow, someone is literally "oh I am going to try something out and then let you know the results if it works out", who has shown that he knows a thing or two and everyone comes out with such negativity.

What exactly does anyone lose by Lyrebird giving it a crack

 

[manticle]

Pants and pride.

Go for it LC.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

I have done that of sorts. I make my mates brew APAs which I don't know the hop schedule, and use that guide what I like.

Perhaps not the most rigorous method, but I'm usually blind by the end of the night :kooi:

Improved experimental design: you and your mate cross over beers and then both get blind.

 

[JDW81]

I don't think anyone has come out with a "told you so attitude", there has just been a debate about the current evidence and how much you can prove on a small scale.

Not suggesting he shouldn't give it a crack, just need to not get too excited about the results.

I suspect LC isn't too worried about the debate around the topic. He sounds like he's got a good understanding of the scientific method and is happy to have a rigorous debate around most topics. You don't survive long trying to publish/prove anything if you're not willing to debate the current evidence, proposed experiments and results.

FWIW I'm interested to see what he comes up with.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Good god man.

No Challenger?

No christmas card for you.

Sorry, I took down the comment about not using hops starting with C.

I've never tried Challenger but it sounds interesting. So many hops, so little time....

I find that there's a 90% chance that if a hop came from the pacific northwest or is polyploid I won't like it. Most hops starting with "C" qualify. Hey, at least I'm unperturbed by the Citra shortage. Losing POR, however, will hurt.

 

[JDW81]

I've never tried Challenger but it sounds interesting. So many hops, so little time....

It's a brilliant hop.

Great for all things British (and much, much more).

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Challenger is top of the list of things to try: I was told the other day that HPA won't be offering POR from 2017 onwards (that info came from a brewer in Bright, a few km from the Rostrevor gardens so I'm inclined to believe it).

Maybe I'll pretend it's called Northern Challenger.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Back to the topic at hand: so far so good, yeast activity evident in both* fermenters at 12 hours. My test for this is fairly crude but effective: gently swirl the fermenter, if the glad wrap starts to bulge it's active. If it blows off, it's very active.


*Wort was split to two fermenters, yeasts are Wyeast 1388 and 1762. 1388 should be a good test, it seems to have a bad habit of sticking at around 9 Bx.

 

[good4whatAlesU]

Random block design with replicates I hope? .. Lol. I can't even figure out which day I'm sposed to put the recycling out. Damn council is playing games with me

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Just a quick update: 1762 went like a train as usual, it's now finished or at least close enough to start the refeeding stage.

1388 as expected slowed down at around 9-10 oP Normally I belt it with O2 and it recovers, this time I decided to see what effect adding oleic acid would have.

When the slow down became apparent, I gave the fermenter a decent swirl and left it for 24 hours in which time it dropped by slightly less than 1oP. Next day I added an extra 0.5ml of 1% oleic acid and swirled the fermenter again. The ferment appeared to recover and dropped by slightly less than 2 oP over 24 hours.

Another 24 hours later it's under 5 oP and things are slowing down again but that's to be expected.

Now I know the plural of anecdote is not data but the simplest explanation of this is that the yeast derives some benefit from oleic acid addition even if it's done during ferment.