Turbid Runoff

[Smashin]

After a year of AG brewing with increasing success, I bought a few bags of Weyermman Pilsner Malt. Since then My run offs have never achieved comparable clarify as I have from JWM or TF malts, there is a lingering turbidity in my runoff. My water is very soft, I have tried various mash shedules and rests and still there is a lingering turbidity through the run off, boil and chill haze has never plagued me so intensly even with 90 min boils. Tastes seam unchanged but asthetics are degrading and frustrating even when using polyclar 7030 and Brewbrite at crude levels. Any help greatly apprecieted.

 

[Quintrex]

After a year of AG brewing with increasing success, I bought a few bags of Weyermman Pilsner Malt. Since then My run offs have never achieved comparable clarify as I have from JWM or TF malts, there is a lingering turbidity in my runoff. My water is very soft, I have tried various mash shedules and rests and still there is a lingering turbidity through the run off, boil and chill haze has never plagued me so intensly even with 90 min boils. Tastes seam unchanged but asthetics are degrading and frustrating even when using polyclar 7030 and Brewbrite at crude levels. Any help greatly apprecieted.

Try adding a protein rest into your mash schedule and/or a small amount of acidulated malt (maybe 150g for a 23L batch), these two things have helped me!

Q

 

[dr K]

my questions would be:
Do you vorlauf ?
and
How long do you sparge for?
I strive for a clear wort run-off from the tun but would not lose sleep over some tubidity.
The bit that worries me though is that you all of a sudden have clarity problems right through.
Anything else change..are the malts you are using reliably fresh?

K

 

[Weizguy]

G'day Smashin,

Where do you live and what's your water like?
Has the water quality changed?
Have you made any equipment changes?
Lastly, are you using the Weyermann Pils or Bohemian Pils malt?

Beerz
Les

 

[edoeven]

hmmm I generally never get clear runoff, except for the last batch sparge... must be something to do with my manifold (holes in copper manifold too big or something), but have never had any probs with beer clarity in the end product?!

 

[Screwtop]

Do you include a Mash Out Step? Never had a problem with Wey Malts in this respect.

 

[jimmy01]

Hi Smashin

Yes I have had similar problems particularly with Weyermann Pils Malt. Beer taste great but is hazy and head retention is not great. Have tried pH correction, protein rest, mash out, longer boils, Koppafloc and polyclar without success. Yes I do vorlauf.

Maybe I will try a batch with JW pils again and see what happens.

will watch this thread with interest

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[warra48]

This problem may not all be down to out methodology in mashing, sparging etc.
Seeing as we have a world wide shortage of grains and hops, due to climate conditions, may it, in fact, be due to the inherent quality (or lack of it)of the grains we are able to purchase at present???

 

[Screwtop]

This problem may not all be down to out methodology in mashing, sparging etc.
Seeing as we have a world wide shortage of grains and hops, due to climate conditions, may it, in fact, be due to the inherent quality (or lack of it)of the grains we are able to purchase at present???

Or maybe some of us are buying "good Stuff" from a secret source :lol: no probs here.

 

[PistolPatch]

Totally agree with Warra48.

I could brew crystal clear beers 18 months ago with nothing more than kettle finings and a 60 minute boil. I returned to a 90 minute boil which improved things a bit but have found the only guarantee of me getting a crystal result is using isinglass followed by filtering. This works a treat.

Neville of GryphonBrewing is the most precise brewer I have met but even he had problems in this area with the current grain. The advice I have offered above is what I got from him and he scored a billion gold medals in the last show over here in the pilsner and lager departments.

This guy is a perfectionist. I won't even tell you what extent he goes to to get his brewing water apart from to say he drives well over half an hour for it!!!

When guys like this have problems they have never had before then I think we should, as Warra said, look at the grain and count ourselves lucky that there is a solution.

Cheers,
Pat

P.S. I did polyclar and filtering once but that didn't work. Was back on the 60 minute boil then but the isinglass hasn't failed me yet.

 

[Smashin]

Wow guys, just stumbled across this thread about the exact same problem I was having,,,eeerrrr.... damn I must have been p!ssed when I wrote it coz it don't remember starting it....lolol at me..

Yes I've tried various protien rests, 40,45,50,55 no effect on cloudy runoff, Even tried acid resting for 24hrs prior to mashing. I have done acid adjustments with acidulated malt but no effect on clarity.

I to used koppafloc, polyclar 7030, brewbrite and VT in the boil and prior to cold filtering, with only minor improvements.

Yes, My first though was water as we recently moved 10k down the road, but I don't have this problem with JWM malts, marris otter or halcyon malts. And given that my water is extremely soft (tassie water) i.e <30ppm or <60uS I find it hard to see such a difference from the water (although it would be a simple explanation). Just seam to be Weyermann Pils malt (not bohemian).

Must run but will be bak.

 

[Smashin]

Back again

The other thing I've noticed with Weyermann pils malt (it may just be this bag and/or how it has been transpoprted as this is the first bag i've bought) but it's diastatic power seam significantly lower. I recently brewed a wit with 30% flaked wheat and it failed to convert even after 30min at 51 and 3hrs at 65 (confirmed by iodine test and wort taste), somthing i have not had a problem with when using JWM pils. When I retried with 20%flaked Wheat it converted after ~2hrs. Given that pils malt should have a superior diastatic power and after forking out for a bag of the #1 brand I can only say I've been dissapointed. Although the Weyermann Munich is to die for.... Most ends up in my mouth not the mash tun... h34r: :unsure:

 

[Tony]

I would look at the water chemistry.

When i lived in tamworth i could not make a clear pale beer. They all looked like milk. I had to add darker malts to drop the pH of the mash to get a clearer beer. Acidulated malts worked to a point but large amounts of it to drop the pH had flavour effects.

The water was fairly soft with about 100PPM CaCo3 but high pH at almost 8 from memory.

Moved to THe hunter Valley and instant clear beers. Soft water thats much lower pH closer to the 7 it should be and an all pils malt mash hits 5.2 to 5.3 pH no worries.

I just filter out the yeast and bobs your uncle.

No chilling a pale beer does make it cloudier for me....... ive found a 90 min boil, and rapid chill work well.

My last brew was 25% flaked maize and the rest the suposed under modified Weyermann Bohemien Pils malt and i got 85 to 90 % efficiency to the fermenter from memory with a 90 minuite mash and 20 min protein rest at 52 deg.

Runoff looked like it had gone through a filter............ i could see the bottom of the kettle with 65 liters in there when shining a torch in before it boiled.

as for clarity........... i wil report back on that when its in the keg.

cheers

 

[wessmith]

I would look at the water chemistry.

When i lived in tamworth i could not make a clear pale beer. They all looked like milk. I had to add darker malts to drop the pH of the mash to get a clearer beer. Acidulated malts worked to a point but large amounts of it to drop the pH had flavour effects.

The water was fairly soft with about 100PPM CaCo3 but high pH at almost 8 from memory.

Moved to THe hunter Valley and instant clear beers. Soft water thats much lower pH closer to the 7 it should be and an all pils malt mash hits 5.2 to 5.3 pH no worries.

I just filter out the yeast and bobs your uncle.

No chilling a pale beer does make it cloudier for me....... ive found a 90 min boil, and rapid chill work well.

My last brew was 25% flaked maize and the rest the suposed under modified Weyermann Bohemien Pils malt and i got 85 to 90 % efficiency to the fermenter from memory with a 90 minuite mash and 20 min protein rest at 52 deg.

Runoff looked like it had gone through a filter............ i could see the bottom of the kettle with 65 liters in there when shining a torch in before it boiled.

as for clarity........... i wil report back on that when its in the keg.

cheers

You have nailed it Tony,

The problem is bi-carbonate hardness or HCO3. Water analysis from the public supplier never gives the HCO3 content but it can be calculated within programs like Promash. Easily rectified but you need to be thinking about acidulation of the TOTAL water used in the brew. Acidulated malt is great for the mash but you also need to treat the sparge water. Try 1ml - yes 1ml of Phosphoric acid 85% in a 25ltr brew by adding to the HLT for the total brew water.

If you have a pH meter you should add enough Phosphoric acid (H3PO4) to bring the pH down to 6.0 to 6.5pH.

Serious brewers need to be aware of the water ph, mash pH, and final beer pH. When something isnt right then you need some reference points.

Wes

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

You have nailed it Tony,

The problem is bi-carbonate hardness or HCO3. Water analysis from the public supplier never gives the HCO3 content but it can be calculated within programs like Promash. Easily rectified but you need to be thinking about acidulation of the TOTAL water used in the brew. Acidulated malt is great for the mash but you also need to treat the sparge water. Try 1ml - yes 1ml of Phosphoric acid 85% in a 25ltr brew by adding to the HLT for the total brew water.

If you have a pH meter you should add enough Phosphoric acid (H3PO4) to bring the pH down to 6.0 to 6.5pH.

Serious brewers need to be aware of the water ph, mash pH, and final beer pH. When something isnt right then you need some reference points.

Wes

Been there done that, Take and adjust more pH than anybody I know, so I dont agree totally with your statement.I do agree with what you are saying about the need to take pH readings because in my case it is proof the pH is not the cause.
GB

 

[jimmy01]

Interesting that some brewers identify Weyermann malt as a possible cause for poor wort and beer clarity.

I have only brewed 6 AG pils to date (no 7 in the fridge now).
Looking back at my records - the first 2 for which I used Joe White Pils malt were clear.
The 4 I did with Weyermann had a permanent haze in the bottle. Taste great though!

The recipe is essentially the same with a few minor tweaks. One other difference may be the crush. The Joe White was crushed by the LHBS. The first 2 Weyermann brews were crushed by a different supplier and the last 2 I crushed with my modified Marga mill. From memory the crush was pretty uniform from both suppliers and comparable to my marga. Must be considered as factor though.

I will definitely get some Joe White for the next brew and see if that makes a difference.


Cheers
Jimmy

 

[Julez]

After a year of AG brewing with increasing success, I bought a few bags of Weyermman Pilsner Malt. Since then My run offs have never achieved comparable clarify as I have from JWM or TF malts, there is a lingering turbidity in my runoff. My water is very soft, I have tried various mash shedules and rests and still there is a lingering turbidity through the run off, boil and chill haze has never plagued me so intensly even with 90 min boils. Tastes seam unchanged but asthetics are degrading and frustrating even when using polyclar 7030 and Brewbrite at crude levels. Any help greatly apprecieted.

Smashin, how fine is your crush and do you no-chill or force-chill?

Julez

 

[jimmy01]

Smashin, how fine is your crush and do you no-chill or force-chill?

Julez

Crush is not overly fine - kernels are well broken without being all flour. Similar to crush I get from Craftbrewer and my LHBS.

I uses an immersion chiller. I did try no-chilling for a couple of brews then returned to chilling. Did not seem to make any difference to clarity.

Jimmy

 

[Smashin]

julez,

To quote the cleche, I minimise the damage on the husk say breaking it into no more than 3 pieces, I target 1/3 chunks, 1/3 grit and 1/3 flour. As it get around 77% efficiency in the fermenter I'm comfortable with the conversion and I don't get astringency from the husk.

I force chill through a counter flow chiller, with a residence time of around 10sec and total time for batch ~5min (nice cold tap water this time of year in tassie <6deg) :icon_drool2: .

I'm never too fussy about chill haze unless it is correct for the style and the batch is for a comp. My observations surround sparge run off clarity when using Weyermann pils and diastatic power of the same.

I doubt you'd find much softer water than what I'm using down here so I tend to rule it out. I do note that the fan levels of weyermann pils are slightly higher than other malts but not overly concerning. Weyermann base barley malts are also physically smaller than JWM, so maybe there is a greater husk to starch ratio???


Wessmith, It maybe worth me trying a consious trial lowering the pH of all of my water, I have some tartatic acid I could use. Is using sanstar too radical??? as it is 50% phosphoric acid, may also help with keeping lactic acid at bay!!!!

My next brew is an octoberfest so this may be a good one to try it on. :icon_cheers: