True Marzen Colour Without Crystal?

[iralosavic]

Yes, decoction will indeed add colour, couldn't tell you how much per step or at what rate, while everyone seems to do it just a little bit differently! Give it a go is my advice, that grain looks all right to start trying it, maybe even drop it to two or even one base malt. FWIW, I do a 100% FM BPils Munich Helles which has done very well at State comp level two years running, I realise Vienna Lager is just a little bit more complex due to this colour issue but the point is 100% base malt and decoction has rocked my world, for you might be worthwhile with 100% Vienna or even Munich II.
BIAB and decoction go together just as well as other methods, however I've found it is worthwhile leaving a goodly bit of room for extra boiling water infusion(s) to adjust temperature after each step, so mash in much thicker than you normally would for stock BIAB, particularly if your kettle is usually full at mashing and you'll appreciate that extra head room.

You know what? I think I might just give decocting a go. It just seems like the best way to achieve the intensity of colour without sacrificing authenticity of style - in fact, I guess it would be difficult to replicate a real Marzen without decocting.

I don't see BIAB decotion as any more of a challenge than 3v decoction, my biggest obstacle is the lack of a second vessle big enough. I have a 9L Chef Inox stock pot, but using the typical 1/3 total mash volume would mean 7L and a lot of boiling over. I just haven't been able to justify buying a 20L pot (and I'm concerned that a single ply, thin-walled pot like what you get from BigW will result in excessive scorching.

I just want to double check something... my understanding is that the 1/3 formula is based on 3v systems that reserve a percentage of water for sparging, therefore the runnings taken to decoct would be a lot thicker than if you took 1/3 of a full volume BIAB mash (like you said), so I would be inclined to base the volume taken on the recipe being ran through a 3v system and then adjust temperatures accordingly.

I figure I'd take the guess work out of balancing mash/sparge volumes and temperature ramps and simply apply heat while stirring the decotion in until the next rest temperature is achieved.


Maybe I will try a BigW pot hmmm

 

[RdeVjun]

Yeah, spot on, until you lift the bag you can just about forget that its a BIAB and treat it much more as though it is a conventional mash. B)
One tip I might add is you can also drain the decoct by pulling it out with a sieve, then add a little liquor back into it once it is in the decoction pot to get it submerging again, that gives you control over the thickness. However, IMO there's nothing wrong with the standard thick and thin decoction approaches with a jug.
Oh, and I don't think we linked to Kai's excellent resources earlier.
Really, the 19L big double ewe pots are fine, provided you don't pump a zillion BTU into it, just stir pretty much continuously from the start and while it comes up to the boil, then once boiling it should circulate itself through convection. However, you may get by with the 9L one, the decoction boil isn't fierce and you'll be there stirring it anyway- I would give it a go first.
Another tool that you may wish consider for colour adjustment is caramelising some wort, again I am not sure how much adjustment could be gained, but may be worthwhile considering. The flavour changing aspect may be unwelcome though, but there's no need to go all the way to toffee with it. Probably not useful for a Vienna Lager, but thought I'd mention it.
Hope this helps! :icon_cheers:

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

@iroslavic - look in my sig.

2 x big w are doable on the stove. I did BIAB full volume using 2 pots on the stove, and now I have a bucket in bucket lauter and use a 25L esky as a mash tun.

Goomba

 

[geoffd]

Thanks for explaining. I actually really like DAB, but I've never tried a true Pol Brok - what is a good example of the style available locally?

Hi Iralosavic, you've picked me up wrong: Brok is a brand not a style, it is imported, no locally brewed version, If you cant find it, perhaps ask a good bottleo if they are willing to get a case in (even if you have to buy the whole case), generally retails at 4.50-5.50 for a 500ml bottle. Just be mindful of date, I bought some recently in an IGA store & it was in pretty poor condition (oxidised). If you live in Melbourne I'll happily go halves with you on a case, if we're near enough to meet up, or have common contacts through brew clubs.

 

[iralosavic]

Hi Iralosavic, you've picked me up wrong: Brok is a brand not a style, it is imported, no locally brewed version, If you cant find it, perhaps ask a good bottleo if they are willing to get a case in (even if you have to buy the whole case), generally retails at 4.50-5.50 for a 500ml bottle. Just be mindful of date, I bought some recently in an IGA store & it was in pretty poor condition (oxidised). If you live in Melbourne I'll happily go halves with you on a case, if we're near enough to meet up, or have common contacts through brew clubs.

http://danmurphys.com.au/product/DM_912039/brok-sambor-500ml - Looks like my local has it in stock, if this is what you're referring to? I'm curious now! I like DAB, but you're right about it having some mineral sharpness, which I don't feel ruins the beer, but takes it down from 10/10 a point or so.

 

[iralosavic]

@iroslavic - look in my sig.

2 x big w are doable on the stove. I did BIAB full volume using 2 pots on the stove, and now I have a bucket in bucket lauter and use a 25L esky as a mash tun.

Goomba

I've seen your thead about that before hehe I only need one pot for decocting - the rest of the mash/sparge/boil process can occur in my keggle as usual. It's good to see the BigW pot holding up well though - instills some confidence.

I will see how I go with the 2L headspace in my Chef Inox pot first. Cheers

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I've seen your thead about that before hehe I only need one pot for decocting - the rest of the mash/sparge/boil process can occur in my keggle as usual. It's good to see the BigW pot holding up well though - instills some confidence.

I will see how I go with the 2L headspace in my Chef Inox pot first. Cheers

No worries. I was more going alone the lines of "well, if you have to buy a 20L pot for decocting, it won't be a complete waste".

I've a 9L pasta pot, and should (when) I concoct (Probably doing a Vienna Lager in the near future), I'll use that.

Goomba

 

[Bribie G]

Vienna 85% and Melanoidin 15% would get you there, Kunze suggests 5-25% as a working range so should be fine and probably more like the traditional Marzen you are looking for I suspect that the older versions of Vienna were a bit darker than todays offerings. As mentioned above a triple decoction is going to add a bit of colour.
Mark

Here's my Maltbomb which is 3/4 Vienna and 1/4 Munich 1 mixed with a tad of Melanoiden (200g)
I dragged this out of the tap a bit early (only kegged last Thursday - apologies ) but Mark's right about the colour of Vienna.



I'm surprised he didn't mention Briess Ultra Black, it's a bit like an instant coffee powder version of Sinamar, got some from Marks' last year and it's the dux for colouring up anything with negligible flavour contribution.

EDIT:



There you go, and I even drank it

 

[geoffd]

http://danmurphys.com.au/product/DM_912039/brok-sambor-500ml - Looks like my local has it in stock, if this is what you're referring to? I'm curious now! I like DAB, but you're right about it having some mineral sharpness, which I don't feel ruins the beer, but takes it down from 10/10 a point or so.

that's the stuff, great find with the price, who in gods name would buy VB ior the likes when you can bet this for $3 for a 500ml bottle (by the case price), thats an exceptionally good price.

 

[Bribie G]

Brok is weak piss of the horses for the ignorant sister shagging peasants. True Poles drink Zywiec and can pronounce the name as well B)

 

[NickB]

So are you a Pole, or do you like poles Michael?






h34r:


Or maybe just a dirty Lager-Loving-Pommy-Man

 

[Bribie G]

The Poles are one of those fortunate races that, if you get a room full of them at random, most of them are really good looking (As opposed to a trip to the Morayfield Shopping Centre for example)

Thus it was with Monika.

Who didn't even have a Z or a W in her name :huh:

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

BROK is rubbish. Zwyiec is way better, and I am partial to a bit of Kozel (though it isn't Polish).

 

[manticle]

I like all three.

 

[iralosavic]

I don't mind the Zywiec lager; it's smooth and inoffensive, but I feel it is lacking that something that sets it apart from the others. Their porter is one of my favourite dark beers though!

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I don't mind the Zywiec lager; it's smooth and inoffensive, but I feel it is lacking that something that sets it apart from the others. Their porter is one of my favourite dark beers though!

+1. Love Zwyiec Porter and for a 9% beer to be $20/6er is great value.

Goomba

 

[geoffd]

try Ocokim porter, it's extremly good, and cheap.

I prefer Brok as i find Zwyiec too dry, kozel (Czech for mountain goat) is nice too, I'm not a huge fan of Kozel Dark though, Kruscovice Black is much nicer, for my taste buds at least, each to their own.

 

[manticle]

Way OT sorry

FJ - have you been to Koliba on Johnston St collingwood for massive snitzels and 1 L glasses of draught Kruscovice and budvar (or 500 mL or 250 mL but seeing as though you offered me a glass of young, uncarbonated ESB at about 7.30 on a sunday morning, I can't imagine 250 mL is on your radar)?

Well worth a visit. Will tide me over till I can actually get to eastern Europe.

http://www.bestrestaurants.com.au/restaura...restaurant.aspx

 

[geoffd]

Way OT sorry

FJ - have you been to Koliba on Johnston St collingwood for massive snitzels and 1 L glasses of draught Kruscovice and budvar (or 500 mL or 250 mL but seeing as though you offered me a glass of young, uncarbonated ESB at about 7.30 on a sunday morning, I can't imagine 250 mL is on your radar)?

Well worth a visit. Will tide me over till I can actually get to eastern Europe.

http://www.bestrestaurants.com.au/restaura...restaurant.aspx

but it was 8:30pm Irish time, my body clock is just strugling with the change over.

Looks interesting, The Czech national dish is pork & dumplings, the Slovak national dish is pork & dumplings, makes you wonder why they ever split Czechoslvakia up. Is it restaurant only or can you go in just for the beer?

 

[black_labb]

I used salts in this recipe purely for calcium, used carbonate with chloride not to have too much chloride. picked calcium carbonate over calcium sulphate as it's a malt driven beer, carbonate accentuates malt, sulphate accentuates hops (you probably knew that so sorry if I'm being too simplistic with you)

I could also have split over CaCl, CaCo3 & CaSO4 to minimise all the salt impacts & get reasonable calcium.
I guessed the Ph adjustment with the ammount of acidulated malt, overshot it just a fraction & rectified by diluting.

I'm not a big fan of being sytlistically accurate with german water as it's heavily mineralised & takes away from the drinkability of the beer, Dortmunder being a good example, try a DAB next to a Polish Brok similar beer styles, you'll probably notice the Brok is a lot smoother & rounder malty flavour, I prefer this over being stylistically accurate.

This is also why I dont bother to make german pils, why waste a brew day on a mineralised sharper beer when you can make a Brok or a rich but soft Czech pilsner (lots of vienna as opposed to the pils dominated versions)
Thats just what I do, some people will prefer the drier crisp finish in the minerally water.

I'm fairly certain chlorides are responsible for the malt flavours, sulfates will exentuate bitterness. Carbonates are good for hardening the water for when you want to do a dark beer without the ph dropping too low in the mash. Calcium is important for an efficient mash

Just want to make sure people aren't getting the wrong information