Tried everything! Infection again!

[Paddy Melon]

Hi Tim,
I do all the cleaning and sanitizing of my ferment fridge as required then I finish by using a spray bottle of 50% water and 50 % white vinegar. This seems to prevent any mould growth. Also don't use silicon it can harbour mould, just check shower recesses where it gets used.
M

 

[dibbz]

Brutally honest, my fridges are moldy AF and it doesn't matter with proper process.

I'm curious of your process between the end of boil and the wort ending up in the FV and yeast going in? How does it chill?

My experience is when the wort goes into the FV via a chiller or even with cubes in summer it still has to chill to say 18c to pitch, it's sucking in air when it's cooling even from room temp as the air in the FV cools.

On the brew buckets I have a blow off about 2mm into some sanitizer in a jar when it cools so the air it sucks in as it cools has to run past that, and not enough for it to suck it into the fv, if you use an airlock the S shaped one is better for 2 way venting too.

Additionally regarding the rim/lid area, how is there wort up there for anything to grow on? Do you shake for aeration?

 

[Paddy Melon]

My system for cooling down the wort is to leave the wort 2 litres shy and when it goes into the FV add two litres of Ice which I make by using filtered water. I use an aquarium pump fitted with an air filter while the ice is melting. So far I haven't had any problems.

 

[GregTheBrewer]

Hi Guys and Merry Christmas to all. The article that Wide Eyed referred to is very interesting, and it explains why percarbonate alone may not be enough: you need a detergent/surfactant to upset the little buggers so they are more susceptible to the sanitising agent. This is why PBW or similar contains sodium metasilicate: the combination of this with the sodium percarbonate produces a great alkaline wash and oxidising agent that is often enough to do the job by itself. Having said that, and while it does get the equipment super clean, I still use Starsan before brewing!

 

[MHB]

One thing I note in the OP is that he was using an Acid sanitiser as part of the process, isn't any more and is now having problems.
Beer Stone (Calcium Oxalate) will build up and it provides a great refuge for bugs, it takes an acid cleaner to remove beer stone, all the hot caustic, percarbonate, bleach... in the world wont shift it. Acid sanitiser and Iodophor will (Iodine and phosphoric acid).
There is a decent possibility that that's what's missing from his cleaning regime.

That said persistent infections can be a bugger, sometimes the best you can do is to no-chill a couple of beers, if the cubes don't swell at least you know the problem is down stream from there. sometimes it takes a complete replacement of all your plastic (though bathtub soaking in bleach as above should be pretty effective), sometimes you can track down what is called the seat of the infection, be I a transfer hose, even seen plastic fermenter lids that weren't well made and were porous. I remember one customer who couldn't brew in March, there was a big tree next door that when in flower was shedding masses of wild yeast, the air itself was a seat of infection, so clean room (as is in filtered air) or skip brewing in March...

Good luck, I know just how frustrating it can be.
Mark

 

[peterlonz]

I can't claim personal knowledge of this, but a mate told be that at the brewery he worked at, they regularly changed the sanitizing & cleaning agents.
OK so I presume that was in anticipation of immunity developing in whatever bugs might be around.
I can say that the first 6 months of my brewing history was one failure after another. Never did find out why, but as soon as we moved, infections ceased.

 

[mongey]

Brutally honest, my fridges are moldy AF and it doesn't matter with proper process.

I'm curious of your process between the end of boil and the wort ending up in the FV and yeast going in? How does it chill?

My experience is when the wort goes into the FV via a chiller or even with cubes in summer it still has to chill to say 18c to pitch, it's sucking in air when it's cooling even from room temp as the air in the FV cools.

On the brew buckets I have a blow off about 2mm into some sanitizer in a jar when it cools so the air it sucks in as it cools has to run past that, and not enough for it to suck it into the fv, if you use an airlock the S shaped one is better for 2 way venting too.

Additionally regarding the rim/lid area, how is there wort up there for anything to grow on? Do you shake for aeration?

I’m the same. My brew fridge is filthy and I never have an issue. But I don’t use the tap for bottling cause it does worry me. As it’s the one place open to bugs. I siphon from the top into bottling bucket instead.

 

[Grmblz]

A very interesting podcast interview with the chemist from 5 star brewing chemicals (the guy that invented starsan and PBW) answers a whole lot questions and debunks a lot of myths, eg you don't actually have to clean organic matter off stuff for starsan to sanitise it, it's best practice but not essential, best to download it as the actual interview starts 55 min's into the show.

 

[Grmblz]

http://s125483039.onlinehome.us/archive/dwnldarchive03-19-06.mp3

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Didn't bother watching it again but pretty sure that this one contradicts.
https://beersmith.com/blog/2019/02/...tion-with-rick-theiner-beersmith-podcast-187/
Also I have noticed that StarSan has been removed by the powers that be on sanitising bulk milk trucks just recently.

 

[MHB]

I suspect that might have more to do with the truly horrendous detergent they use in star san!
Dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid is a good argument for being a greenie. Governments are finally waking up to the fact that there are alternatives that do less harm... rant off. Personally wouldn't touch it, given so many other better choices.
Mark

 

[Grmblz]

Thanks for the comments, have watched the vid on eco logic and it seems their one step is a weaker version of PBW (may need scrubbing to remove krausen) my understanding is that stella san also uses dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid. looking at the data sheets it doesn't seem too bad (to my untrained eye) so I guess the question is what actually works (without scrubbing etc) that doesn't pose a danger to the environment (me and my septic tank/garden) Yes I know I'm covering two subjects cleaning and sanitising I'm just trying to minimise my water consumption and maybe get up to speed with the 21st century without compromising my brews. Another thing that occurs to me is they are all trying to supply a one size fits all product whereas in reality the suitability of the products depends on your process, equipment, and your water composition, as a tank water user I don't need to worry about mineral content (there aint none) so chemicals added to counter water hardness are pretty much irrelevant in my situation. Is iodophor a better solution? sure it stains stuff but so what, and as one chemist comments "if it's red it's dead" but then do I really want it in my septic, I suspect not. There's just so much conflicting information out there and new products but are they really any better than the old tried and true or just another way of extracting coin under the guise of "new and improved, and environmentally friendly" Any thoughts on the current state of play?

 

[brisie]

Is there a tap screwed to the fermenter? When I used to brew in plastic buckets I'd buy them without the bottom hole drilled out thinking about how much bacteria could hide in the thread.

 

[MHB]

If you want a septic system to work properly, you can rule out all the Halogens (fluorine, chlorine. bromine, iodine..) and anything made from them, so bleach is out to.
Caustic, widely used in commercially is good, if hazardous (I've got a scar 30 odd year old that's there for life). Carbonate and peroxide or the combined form Sodium Percarbonate are a pretty safe and environmentally friendly option.
Caustic and Carbonate will help waste water systems by saponifying fats whish helps them biodegrade.
Personally its mostly Sodium Percarbonate for general cleaning, Proxitane for heavy sterilising, 70% ethanol in water as a spray spot steriliser (just Metho and water).
I don't expect instant cleaning and never mind spending some time scrubbing if its needed.
Admittedly if its yeast culturing equipment, **** the fish, I'm going all out which means soaking yeast propagators, lines, bungs, air stones... in Iodophor after cleaning, but not putting that stuff down the drains if your on a septic system.
Mark

 

[JDW81]

I've been brewing for about 15 years and have never had an infection (across 4-5 different locations around victoria and NSW).

My process initially was the pink sanitiser, but has been the same for 10 years and hasn't skipped a beat.

As soon as any piece of equipment is used, it is cleaned with either sodium percarbonate/dishwashing detergent (depending on it's use/degree of soiling) and a green scouring pad or soft cloth for the plastics. Prior to coming in contact with beer or wort everything is washed with a soft cloth and dishwashing detergent and then rinsed very clean (I don't use much water despite good rinsing). I mostly use cold water.

My sanitisation routine only commences once everything is squeaky clean. A surgeon once told me (I work in a hospital) that there's no point trying to sanitise your hands with sanitising spray if they're dirty. If you've got shit on your hands, even if you spray them you'll still have shit on there, so wash them first. Can't sanitise unless it's clean.

I use the old keg king no rinse sanitiser. Was given a large bottle for free to trial ages ago, and it's still going strong. Everything gets a good spray, sits for a about 15 minutes then rinse with boiling water. Kegs are sanitised with steam from a steam cleaner after a hit with no rinse sanitiser.

Everything gets rinsed on the grass, and nothing goes down the drain.

The best surgical prep agent is povidone iodine with 70% isopropyl alcohol, as it kills both sporing and non-sporing organisms, so it stands to reason that idophor is a good option (may consider it down the track if starsan is not great for the environment).

This is my method, and may have a step or two more than necessary in there but still haven't had an infection so I think it is worth the extra time.

JD

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I have noticed my grass has died where I clean the kettle after a brew, I throw the hop dregs etc onto the lawn this is where the grass is no more. I can only put this down to the hops, the little of left over wort goes onto the bamboo as a bit of feed for the microbes,bugs and worms.
May have to try using old hops as a weed killer.
JDW81 What do they use to sanitise the colonoscopy cameras.?

 

[JDW81]

Not sure, but it’s a pretty involved process which is logged so it can be tracked if there’s an issue.

Other surgical equipment is sterilised by a mix of steam, dry heat, chemical and gamma radiation (I think). Learnt it for my exams them promptly forgot as it wasn’t relevant to my job.