Toucan = Too Weak?

[dbod]

Tried a Toucan this week:

Liquid Malt:
1 x Morgan's Caramalt (1.5kg)
1 x Morgan's PME (1.5kg)

Boiled for an hour with:

Hops:
30g Perle Hops (45mins)
30g East Kent Goldings (10mins)

Extras:
300g Crystal Malt - steeped for one hour, added prior to yeast.

Yeast:
Safale @04

Total to 23 litres with water added.

Threw this all in and after 5 days, seems like the ferment has tailed off as per normal with the Safale.


Original Gravity = 1031
Final Gravity (now) = 1016

Gives me a feeble ABV of just 1.93% :/


Am I not putting enough fermentables in at the outset? Should I be aiming for using less liquid than 23 litres, or putting more malt in?

Have already bottled one very similar and it tastes watery and has an unknown chemical tang to boot but put it down to a bad batch.
Going to be gutted if this one is coming out similar. Any ideas? It's still in the Primary for now, I've only just taken my Final Gravity Reading.

Getting desperate to nail a Toucan recipe for an English Bitter with plenty of hops that I can call a banker, still searching.

 

[brettprevans]

you've used 2 tins of malt extract. this is just pure liquid malt extract. its not the same as the coopers/tooheys/cascade tins which are a mixture of hops, malts etc etc.

Im also thinking your hydro is wonrg as 3kg of fermentables would come higher than 1031. I get 1044 and 4.9%alc.

even at 1031 and 1016, I get 2.5%alc

so something not quite right.

 

[Renegade]

1. I think your hydrometer is broken (what does it read in plain tap water?)

2. Your boil OG would have been too high to effectivly extract those hops of their flavour (or so the theory goes)

3. Next time boil the juice from the crystal (after removing the grain)

 

[dbod]

you've used 2 tins of malt extract. this is just pure liquid malt extract. its not the same as the coopers/tooheys/cascade tins which are a mixture of hops, malts etc etc.

Im also thinking your hydro is wonrg as 3kg of fermentables would come higher than 1031. I get 1044 and 4.9%alc.

even at 1031 and 1016, I get 2.5%alc

so something not quite right.

Thanks. I'm hoping the 2 tins of LME are OK as I'm adding fresh Hops to the boil, trying to avoid pre-made Kit Wort and that gravy flavour it has.

Maybe my OG was wrong. 1030 at 22C was what I got, prior to adding the yeast. Not sure how I could have stuffed it up but can't rule it out I suppose.
In truth I've always managed to forget the OG Hydrometer reading and this is first time taking one.

Just tried a different ABV Calculator and got:
Temp Corrected
Original: 1.032
Final: 1.016
Alcohol By Weight: 1.7 %
Alcohol By Volume: 2.1 %

Readings were 1031 at 22C and 1016 at 18C.

I guess my main fear is that 3kg LME isn't enough ooomph to get the 5% bitter I'm hoping for.

 

[Renegade]

Oh hang on, a thought just occurred to me. Do you still have the tins?

I'm sure that Morgan's Caramalt is a 1kg tin, not 1.5kg like most other extract cans. And the other one may be 1kg too. Just a hunch, and my memory's a bit shoddy. But yea, check that out.

 

[dbod]

Hydrometer reading 1 on the money in tap water :unsure:


- Definitely 1.5kg tins - just double-checked.


I've got the exact same ingredients teed up for another batch, that's why I'm after any tips before I replicate the same brew.

 

[brettprevans]

Oh hang on, a thought just occurred to me. Do you still have the tins?

I'm sure that Morgan's Caramalt is a 1kg tin, not 1.5kg like most other extract cans. And the other one may be 1kg too. Just a hunch, and my memory's a bit shoddy. But yea, check that out.

I didnt even pick that up. Morgans extract tins are 1kg not 1.5kg. so your only using 2kg of fermentables. that part of the problem. a normal toucan 9using something like coopers) is 2x1.7kg tins so 3.4kg total. your under half that or just over 1 tin worth.

edit: linky to morgans caramalt. definitely 1kg

 

[buttersd70]

Regardless of what the OG said, 3kg of liquid malt extract in 23L volume does not = 1031.

(I'm too lazy to plug it in myself, but CM2's 1044 sounds right, off the top of my head. I'll take that as correct.)

 

[dbod]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the feedback.

These Morgan's LMEs are deffo 1.5kg. See the pics I just took:

I can only assume, if my readings are correct, I'm fluffing up the initial boil somehow. Otherwise, OG is wrong and my ABV should be OK.


Around 5 litres of H20 with the two cans of LME, brought to rolling boil, hops added at appropriate times, total H20 boil time around 1 hour.

*First time out on a Toucan I didn't even boil the LME, just the hops in water and added LME cold prior to pitch so this is all new to me.

I can sense I'm close to the nirvana of a hoppy Toucan English Bitter but goddammit!!! it's frustrating not quite nailing it. And waiting 4-6 weeks to try it before kicking off another one is a killer!!!


*Anyway, I'm locked in now and since you all seem OK with my fermentable numbers there, I'll just go with it and try and be more thorough with the Hydrometer in future. I'll try and update this with what it tastes like but will move it to Secondary and leave for a week or two for good measure before Bulk Prime.

Patience is definitely not a virtue I possess and probably the single hardest aspect of Homebrew for me. No wonder brewers were all Monks!

 

[Adamt]

Your readings wouldn't have been correct unless you left 1/3 of the malt in the can or in your boil-pot. Ignore your (false) OG and assume it was around 1.040-1.045.

I wouldn't think your beer is finished fermenting yet at 1.016, give the fermenter a gentle swirl (no splashing) if things have stopped and bump the temperature up to finish it off.

 

[Bribie G]

Yes two cans should give you about 4.5% ABV. Those 3kg kits from ESB turn out about that strength as do the Muntons UK 'toucan' kits with the two tins in the box. Very odd, hey. :huh:

 

[MarkBastard]

I've made a few amber ales using two tins of those but pale malt.

3 litres total. Well unless 1.5KG of LME is only 1L of liquid? Didn't think of that!

 

[mwd]

All the Morgans extract malts now are 1.5Kg.

remember they went missing for a while because they ran out of 1Kg sized cans.

 

[Bribie G]

Getting into the advanced mathematics here, a 1.7L beer kit actually weighs 1.3 kg. Back in the old days the tins such as Brigalow used to be labelled by weight not volume and I remember that weight vividly as I ran a LHBS back in 1980. So a 1.5 kg tin of extract actually contains a tad more than a beer kit. So the OP's brew, on further reflection, should have even been a bit stronger than using two cans of Coopers or Morgans etc.

 

[O'Henry]

1. I think your hydrometer is broken (what does it read in plain tap water?)

2. Your boil OG would have been too high to effectivly extract those hops of their flavour (or so the theory goes)

3. Next time boil the juice from the crystal (after removing the grain)

With point two, is the efficency of extracting the flavours in beersmith? If you boil in water is the flavour extraction the best it can be or does there need to be some sugar in the liquid?

 

[thylacine]

Tried a Toucan this week:

Liquid Malt:
1 x Morgan's Caramalt (1.5kg)
1 x Morgan's PME (1.5kg)

Boiled for an hour with:

Hops:
30g Perle Hops (45mins)
30g East Kent Goldings (10mins)

Extras:
300g Crystal Malt - steeped for one hour, added prior to yeast.

Yeast:
Safale @04


Toucan Brew = Beer recipe using two cans of pre-hopped liquid malt

Total to 23 litres with water added.

Threw this all in and after 5 days, seems like the ferment has tailed off as per normal with the Safale.


Original Gravity = 1031
Final Gravity (now) = 1016

Gives me a feeble ABV of just 1.93% :/


Am I not putting enough fermentables in at the outset? Should I be aiming for using less liquid than 23 litres, or putting more malt in?

Have already bottled one very similar and it tastes watery and has an unknown chemical tang to boot but put it down to a bad batch.
Going to be gutted if this one is coming out similar. Any ideas? It's still in the Primary for now, I've only just taken my Final Gravity Reading.

Getting desperate to nail a Toucan recipe for an English Bitter with plenty of hops that I can call a banker, still searching.

 

[Renegade]

I believe the boil OG should be around 1040. (not that I pay too much specific attention to this myself, but I wouldnt boil two cans of LME thats for sure)

So there you go, 1.5k cans now from Morgans. Thanks for the update & photos on that. And your hydrometer seems OK in non sugared water. No idea why your reading was so out, but its clearly not right. No way, not at all (unless gnomes broke into the cans, stole half the goop and replaced it with water - highly improbable).

Dont worry too much at this stage, you wont know the true ABV of your beer, but trust me it wont be extra-light.

 

[barry2]

VB are watering down the beer but hopefully Morgans are not watering down the malt.

 

[dbod]

I wouldnt boil two cans of LME thats for sure

Thanks. Back to Hydrometer 101 for me. :blush:


Why wouldn't you boil two cans LME? - you mean b/c you use Grain/other methods, or something about this method. Am open to suggestion on simple Toucan ideas, is all...

And as recommended above - have stirred/warmed this one and seem to be getting some more ferment action.

+++ Two thumbs up to this forum, much needed advice/reassurance/castigation is hard to come by so very welcome.

 

[Renegade]

No becauuse it's suggested that hop extraction is best done (by that I mean 'most efficient') at a sugars to water ratio (ie OG) that is way less than two cans in a pot of water. Unless your pot is 30 litres of course.

Edit - search engine found this old thread http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=29509 on the subject