Time For A Sour Mash?

[Weizguy]

G'day,
I tasted a sour weisse on Friday night. Not too bad at about 10C and without syrup. I added about 25ml raspberry syrup and it tasted like a fizzy drink with a slightly tangy sour aftertaste. Too easy to drink. :chug:

Sethule

 

[NRB]

Thought I'd dig this old topic up as I'm about to attempt a sour mash for a Hoegaarden clone over the weekend.

Thanks go to Pedro for pointing me to the Craft Brewers discussion on "lactic ferment", and thanks go to Asher for the post there.

If I'm reding correctly, taking 250g of my grain bill and minimashing it at 65C for 30 mins, cooling until <40C, mixing in a teaspoon of crushed but unmashed grain and leaving in a warm place for a few days, I SHOULD end up with Lark's vomit.

I take it that once mashed in wort is not strained off the grain, and no sparging takes place with this minimash... I've basically got the grain sitting in a 6-pack esky with gladwrap over it sitting in an old dead bar fridge with a heat pad turned on. Is this correct?

On brew day, I also presume that I either throw this entire lot into the mash or strain into the brew kettle making sure that it's boiled long enought to kill lactobacillus?

If someone could give me some clarity in these issues it would be most appreciated! Oh, and how did your sour beers turn out Seth?

 

[AndrewQLD]

Throw the whole lot into the mash on brewday and proceed as normal, you will love it I'm sure.

Andrew

 

[Jovial_Monk]

The grain added to the cooled minimash should be whole.

Jovial Monk

 

[Weizguy]

Oh, and how did your sour beers turn out Seth?

[post="53301"][/post]​

First thing, as advised by Andrew, just chuck the lot in and mash as normal.

Nextly, I have been either busy, lazy or both and have only made the Berliner weisse.
Great taste. Strong tartness that begs you to have another sip. I'll be consuming another of my "limited edition" bottles tonight. I may need to make another one soon, buuut... that may have to wait behind some other project beers.

If I have an opportunity, I'll do my Witbier this weekend, with about 150g of my frozen sour mash from the freezer(ziploc bag). S'pose I should be building my yeast up already.

I have about 1/2 dozen batches to make b4 I attempt the quaffing soured ale (or is that a soured quaffer?). A London Pride clone, another weizen (house ale), English pale ale, Wit, Czech Pils and a novelty Passionfruit Fizzy drink Wit (all the ingredients are here, just gotta make time). :chug:

Don't worry, I'll keep this thread alive when I have results.

Seth

 

[NRB]

Thanks for the input fellas.

JM - does it really matter if it's whole or cracked? There's Lactobacillus there whether it's whole or cracked...

 

[Weizguy]

NRB,

I'll answer this if that's OK... The grain can be either way; crushed or otherwise. The beasties are on the outside of the husk, so it doesn't need to be crushed, but if you've done it already...

You can also mix with water and bring to 45C for a few days. I did mine at 50C, all grain was crushed. The beer came out well nice. I soured 500g and split it into 2 lots and froze them until required.

JM, anything you want to add/ correct?

Seth

 

[NRB]

Seth, that's what I'm getting at - the bacteria don't much care whether the carrier is whole or crushed; provided they've not been taken to a temperature above which they'd die.

It's sitting at 38C and will hopefully show signs of activity tomorrow.

 

[Weizguy]

Yep, but the bacteria also needs to access the inside of the grain as a food source.
So U prob need some crushed grain.

Am I still coherent?

Seth

 

[NRB]

It's been sitting between 39C and 41C for 2 days now... starting to smell really bad. Definitely see where the description comes from as it's a sickly vomitus smell. I'll leave it until 5pm today (exactly 48hrs since innoculated) and see how it's progressed.

I bloody hope I can remove the smell from my esky when it's all done!

 

[Jovial_Monk]

From what I remember reading about this, crushing the grain can create enough heat to kill the lactobaccillus!

Since you are adding it to a mash plenty for the beasties to chew on

JM

 

[chiller]

From what I remember reading about this, crushing the grain can create enough heat to kill the lactobaccillus!

Since you are adding it to a mash plenty for the beasties to chew on

JM

[post="53597"][/post]​

This statement certainly needs clarification JM "from what you remember" come on what are you crushing with a steam driven heated roller mill.

Grain dust is a sure way to innoculate with lactobaccillus!

Now -- If I have woken from a Saturday slumber and misread your post you now have the opportunity to post scientific data to back you "theory"

Steve

 

[Jovial_Monk]

Ummmmm "Homebrewing" by Graham Wheeler, likely others besides.

Any mention I have seen anywhere of a lactic mash mentions whole grains


JM

 

[NRB]

From what I remember reading about this, crushing the grain can create enough heat to kill the lactobaccillus!

I find it very hard to believe that you can sterilise grain by running it through the mill.

 

[Kai]

I'm sure lactobacillus could be killed in the crush, if the grain got hot enough to immolate. Beer might turn out a bit crap though.

 

[Jovial_Monk]

Ummmmm, Kai, the ole lactowhatsit is killed at pasteurisation temp which is w w a a y y below burning point of the grains

JM

 

[Gulf Brewery]

Ummmmm, Kai, the ole lactowhatsit is killed at pasteurisation temp which is w w a a y y below burning point of the grains

JM

[post="53635"][/post]​

So JM

What temp do you crush at to kill lacto? No homebrewer could possibly crush grain around the temp required.

Pedro

 

[Kai]

So you're telling me your grain gets over 65C when you crack it, JM? And that's ignoring the fact that to kill bacteria you need far more heat in a dry medium, and that even if for a fraction of a second your grain does get hot, to compensate for that low time you'd need an incredibly high temperature to compensate both for the time and lack of water, then think of all that high surface area grain dust floating round. Can you say le whoosh?

But, by all means go ahead and brew some beers with the cracking as your sole pasteurisation step. I look forward to not trying the results.

 

[Borret]

Oh, and how did your sour beers turn out Seth?

[post="53301"][/post]​

First thing, as advised by Andrew, just chuck the lot in and mash as normal.

Nextly, I have been either busy, lazy or both and have only made the Berliner weisse.
Great taste. Strong tartness that you to have another sip. I'll be consuming another of my "limited edition" bottles tonight. I may need to make another one soon, buuut... that may have to wait behind some other project beers.

If I have an opportunity, I'll do my Witbier this weekend, with about 150g of my frozen sour mash from the freezer(ziploc bag). S'pose I should be building my yeast up already.

I have about 1/2 dozen batches to make b4 I attempt the quaffing soured ale (or is that a soured quaffer?). A London Pride clone, another weizen (house ale), English pale ale, Wit, Czech Pils and a novelty Passionfruit Fizzy drink Wit (all the ingredients are here, just gotta make time). :chug:

Don't worry, I'll keep this thread alive when I have results.

Seth

[post="53317"][/post]​

Hey Seth,

Did you ever do that sour mash Wit?

I have got the week after the longweekend off (very longbrew weekend and my birthday in the middle of it :super: ) and am planning on doing a half batch AG Wit that week. And as I have the time I was considering doing a 5% sourmash leading up to the event to drop into the mash. Have got all my ingredients so can give it a go.
So have you got any tips from your experince? Is it worth the little extra effort do the sour mash?

For the recipe I am going for the 50% pils malt, 45% raw wheat (from health food store) and 5% oats with bittering from either saaz or goldings and the usual corriander and orange skin (BTW I have about half a kg of dried stuff from the chinese woman at work who went a bit overboard when I asked her to get some from the asian grocery store. I think it may be mandarin skin, but should work, so if ya ever need some... I have quite a surplus to my requirement) At this stage am using a hoegaarden culture. I would love to use the wyeast wit you offered but can't see myself up that way before I need it. Perhaps I can use it for a comparison down the track.
Haven't decided on whether to try and step mash it yet, will depend on allocated time on brewday from SWMBO. I anticipate quite a slow sparge with all that raw wheat.

All advice graciously accepted guys. Your comments will be taken on board and dismissed at our jury's discression.

Cheers

Borret :blink:

 

[Weizguy]

Borret,

No, I never got to making the sour mash Wit, but still have all the fixings.

It may go on the backburner while I make some Dunkelweizen and some IPA.

This week, I'll be bottling my London Pride clone (mkII), and my extract-based Arrogant ******* clone (tastes great from the fermentor).

Bye 4 now

Seth out