Those Darn Hops

[Brooksy]

G'day all,

At the moment I am trying to get my head around hops and their procedures.

I have purchased various hop pellets after experimenting with the "tea bags", but questions still exist.

As far as I could workout, bitterness is bitterness, so why are different hops added at different times during the boil. I originally thought it was to ensure that the correct IBU was attained, but this is only part of the solution. I couldn't understand that if a certain IBU was required, why isn't the required amount of hops added in one go. i.e. for an IBU of say 30, this could be achieved by adding 30gms of an 11% AA hops for 30 minutes (21.2% utilization in SG1030 wort)? Are the bittering tastes of the various hops THAT much different?

Utilization % is dependant on the SG of your boiling wort. I have noticed that the lower the SG of your boiling wort the better efficiency (utilization%) you achieve. Does this efficiency improve the lower the SG gets? The reason I ask is that it appears that one may be better off making a hop tea - without any wort at all - processing the hops separately then adding to the fermenter.

When bottling (no racking), when would be the correct time to add hops for aroma and flavour? I believe dry hopping basically relates to racking out.

Sorry guys, I'm a dumb as 2 dogs ph*cking..... :blink:

 

[Stuster]

This might help you out here.

Essentially, later additions give you flavour and aroma.

Dry hop in the fermenter after the main fermentation has finished and give it 3-7 days before bottling. You can also make a hop tea if you want, but it won't give you as much hop aroma. You're better off getting some fresh hops than those tea bags, anyway.

No dumb, just learning, as we all have. :super:

 

[DJR]

You add hops at different times because at the start of the boil, they are for bittering, in the middle for flavour, and in the end for aroma. Saves the need to add it during bottling and picking hop pellets out of your teeth when drinking

You can make a hop tea in water not wort however the pH will be different which can affect the flavour

 

[Wardhog]

Probably not 100% accurate, and a topic that people with far more technical knowledge than I would love to wax lyrical on, but here's my take.

Hops have certain oils that have different properties. Aroma, flavour, and bitterness.

Hops in the boil for 5 minutes or less will give the beer their most apparent attribute, aroma.

Hops in the boil for 30 minutes down to about 5 minutes will have all of their aroma qualities driven off by the boiling, leaving the flavours.

60 down to about 30 minutes in the boil, the flavour attributes are driven off, leaving only bitterness.

That's why hops go into the boil at different times.

 

[Brooksy]

Thank you for the replies guys, but pardon my ignorance.

I assumed that all the volatile oils would be liberated from the hops & wort after about 10 minutes boiling - oh dear, that's a bit wrong.

Stuster - yes sir I have purchased a range of hop pellets:
Super Pride 14%AA
Super Alpha 11%AA
Aust Cascade 5.5%AA
Aust Saaz 4.5%AA

I like a beer with a bit of 'zing' and blindly got this lot - 2 for bittering, 2 for flavour, but end up getting confused the more I read. :lol:

Really looking forward to sampling the Saaz, they seem to be popular in recipes on AHB, but not sure at what point I should add them to my brews.

Cascade also looks interesting, and I don't think it takes Einstein to workout why they were purchased..

The 2 Supers, well purely & simply for their bitterness, but I also want to try them as "flavourers" down the track.

Sometimes I wish the brewing beer was as easy as drinking it :chug: But that'd take all the fun out of it....

Edit: Just checked out the link Stuster. Thank you Sir, just what I need.

 

[Brooksy]

Hops in the boil for 5 minutes or less will give the beer their most apparent attribute, aroma.

Hops in the boil for 30 minutes down to about 5 minutes will have all of their aroma qualities driven off by the boiling, leaving the flavours.

60 down to about 30 minutes in the boil, the flavour attributes are driven off, leaving only bitterness.

3 Lines!! Just 3 lines!! Just 3 simple bl**dy lines.

Thank you Wardhog. That being the absolute base principle, something I haven't read before, now things are falling into place......

Brilliant. Thank you Sir. :beer:

 

[mikem108]

All hops have different characteristics, and even if you are relying on high alpha acid hops for bittering the balance between other compounds in the hops is what gives them their unique chracter, the ammount of beta acid, cohulome and the proportion of a few other key compounds all makes a difference to the end result

 

[Wardhog]

3 Lines!! Just 3 lines!! Just 3 simple bl**dy lines.

Thank you Wardhog. That being the absolute base principle, something I haven't read before, now things are falling into place......

Brilliant. Thank you Sir. :beer:

No worries, glad to be of help. Now for another chance to fall flat on my face and look like a fool.

There are hops that are really only good for bittering, these are known as bittering hops.
There are hops that are really good for flavour and aroma, these are known as 'noble' hops.

An example of a bittering hop is Pride Of Ringwood, it has good %AA levels, but doesn't have a great flavour. The Saaz you have is a hop that has desirable flavours and aromas, but not much in the bittering department (low %AA). This is what I'd consider a noble hop.

There might be hops that ARE genuine all-rounders, but I couldn't tell you what their names are.

Edit : Sorry, just thought of one, Amarillo. Delicious flavour, and a decent %AA (around 8 or 9 from memory).

 

[Stuster]

Probably not 100% accurate, and a topic that people with far more technical knowledge than I would love to wax lyrical on, but here's my take.

Hops have certain oils that have different properties. Aroma, flavour, and bitterness.

Hops in the boil for 5 minutes or less will give the beer their most apparent attribute, aroma.

Hops in the boil for 30 minutes down to about 5 minutes will have all of their aroma qualities driven off by the boiling, leaving the flavours.

60 down to about 30 minutes in the boil, the flavour attributes are driven off, leaving only bitterness.

That's why hops go into the boil at different times.

Good simple explanation. :super:

AFAIK, aroma hopping is usually up to 10 minutes from the end of boil, not 5. Also, it's not exactly true that all the aroma will be gone at this point, or that all the flavour will be gone at 30 minutes. There are plenty of recipes with all the hopping at 60 minutes and others swear that you can tell the difference.

(I haven't done a real comparison batch, but I certainly thought there was an influence from the Spalt hops I used at 60 in an Altbier. You could always do a test and bitter with Chinook in a Light Lager. :lol: )

 

[mikem108]

Nothing wrong with making a beer and using all noble hops.

 

[Wardhog]

Nothing wrong with making a beer and using all noble hops.

Could get expensive trying to make a 40 IBU beer with 3%AA hops...

 

[blackbock]

(I haven't done a real comparison batch, but I certainly thought there was an influence from the Spalt hops I used at 60 in an Altbier. You could always do a test and bitter with Chinook in a Light Lager. :lol: )

Looking to experiment with some Chinook in an IPA very soon. Looking forward to seeing the results @50 IBU.
I've heard it can be astringent at those levels...hmmm

 

[Brooksy]

Thanks all for your replies, they have been extremely informative.

Not only for myself but also for others who were possibly looking for a hidden agenda.....

So I gather that if boiling a couple of cheap kits for a brew, if it is boiled for say 45 mins, you wouldn't change the original IBU rating of the kits (albeit doubled if brewing a standard measure), but only removing the aroma & flavour components (if any).

A brewer should then be careful when adjusting the bitterness during the boil but pay more attention to the latter stages of the boil to add, in my case, some Saaz or Cascade hops for flavour & aroma.

In a no hop extract boiled for an hour:
Bittering - 45-60 mins
Flavour - 30 mins
Aroma - 10 mins
Aroma - Flame out.

Am I close to the mark? :unsure:

 

[Wardhog]

So I gather that if boiling a couple of cheap kits for a brew, if it is boiled for say 45 mins, you wouldn't change the original IBU rating of the kits (albeit doubled if brewing a standard measure), but only removing the aroma & flavour components (if any).

In a no hop extract boiled for an hour:
Bittering - 45-60 mins
Flavour - 30 mins
Aroma - 10 mins
Aroma - Flame out.

I don't know if it's just me, but I use the term 'kit' to designate a can of prebittered malt extract that has a name like "Cooper's Bavarian Lager" or "Munton's draught" or "Cascade Spicy Ghost". Are you boiling one of these, or boiling unhopped malt extract?

Boiling unhopped extract will need hop additions exactly as you say above in the second quote.

 

[bugwan]

In a no hop extract boiled for an hour:
Bittering - 45-60 mins
Flavour - 30 mins
Aroma - 10 mins
Aroma - Flame out.

Am I close to the mark? :unsure:

Spot on KegDrainer. As long as the extract you are using is, as you say, "no hop extract". Otherwise, you are just further hopping an already hopped liquid...

Cheers

 

[Brooksy]

I don't know if it's just me, but I use the term 'kit' to designate a can of prebittered malt extract that has a name like "Cooper's Bavarian Lager" or "Munton's draught" or "Cascade Spicy Ghost". Are you boiling one of these, or boiling unhopped malt extract?

Boiling unhopped extract will need hop additions exactly as you say above in the second quote.

Either of those kits you've mention would be ok but defeating the purpose of purchasing them. I was basically referring to the rough-nut varieties like Coopers Lager, Bitter, Real Ale, or the homebrand kits.

And yes, I am considering getting some unhopped LME from LHBS and having a go from extract basics with my hops, but looking at 3kgs of whatever tickles my fancy :lol:

With the unhopped procedure, I still have to nut out the amounts used - still reading, but considering I'll hop 1kg to 7 litres which is about SG 1050 (for calcs). Boil up the other 2kgs in another batch.

Pale Ale

45mins 25gms Super Pride 14%AA for bittering - 32 IBU
20mins 20gms Cascade 5.5%AA flavour - 6 IBU
5mins 20gms Cascade 5.5%AA Aroma - 2 IBU
0mins 10gms Cascade (maybe)

 

[Wardhog]

Either of those kits you've mention would be ok but defeating the purpose of purchasing them. I was basically referring to the rough-nut varieties like Coopers Lager, Bitter, Real Ale, or the homebrand kits.

And yes, I am considering getting some unhopped LME from LHBS and having a go from extract basics with my hops, but looking at 3kgs of whatever tickles my fancy :lol:

With the unhopped procedure, I still have to nut out the amounts used - still reading, but considering I'll hop 1kg to 7 litres which is about SG 1050 (for calcs). Boil up the other 2kgs in another batch.

Pale Ale

45mins 25gms Super Pride 14%AA for bittering - 32 IBU
20mins 20gms Cascade 5.5%AA flavour - 6 IBU
5mins 20gms Cascade 5.5%AA Aroma - 2 IBU
0mins 10gms Cascade (maybe)

Go the unhopped extract route, it's far more interesting and fun, and will produce a (in my opinion) better beer than using a kit. I'm not sure what they use in kits, whether it's real hops or isohop, but it just doesn't compete with real hops you've boiled yourself.

By the way, that's a tasty looking hop schedule you've got there. Will produce a far more interesting beer than the kits would.

 

[Stuster]

I'm definitely with Wardhog on the unhopped extract idea. One thing to consider is using DME instead of LME. LME tends to stale much quicker than DME, so unless you are sure that the LME is fresh, it might not be the best thing to use. The kit twang that people often talk about is supposed to derive from stale extract.

Your hop schedule looks great and the times are spot on. Personally, I'd say you could back off the bittering addition a bit. I'd say you could go 20g of Super Pride at 60, with 25g additions of Cascade at 20, 5 and 0. You could also use that last addition to dry hop with (or as well ).

With adding the extract, you could also just add the other 2kg of extract about 10 minutes from the end.

Either way, seems like a tasty experiment. :super:

 

[Brooksy]

By the way, that's a tasty looking hop schedule you've got there. Will produce a far more interesting beer than the kits would.

Thank you Sir. :beer:

I'm still learning, but with the info gleaned from this site hopefully my failures will be reduced.

I'll be heading to the LHBS next week (long drive) and discuss/pickup some cans of unhopped extract. At this time I really don't know what extracts I'll get, but Ned & I have some pretty animated and great discussions so I'm sure I'll get some pretty decent stuff.

At this stage I thought it prudent to try a single flavour/aroma hop to get a good understanding of it's impact on the beer.

Next time I'll use the Saaz hops in place of it in the same sequence and quantities.

 

[Wardhog]

Thank you Sir. :beer:

I'm still learning, but with the info gleaned from this site hopefully my failures will be reduced.

I'll be heading to the LHBS next week (long drive) and discuss/pickup some cans of unhopped extract. At this time I really don't know what extracts I'll get, but Ned & I have some pretty animated and great discussions so I'm sure I'll get some pretty decent stuff.

At this stage I thought it prudent to try a single flavour/aroma hop to get a good understanding of it's impact on the beer.

Next time I'll use the Saaz hops in place of it in the same sequence and quantities.

Cascade lends a really good citrus/passionfruit kind of a taste, it's a great hop. As Stuster said, I'd cut back your bittering addition by 5 grams, but that's just me. I'm not a "Shovel as many hops as you can into a brew" kind of guy.

I'd suggest getting 3kg of light malt extract (as opposed to amber or dark), whether it be liquid or dry.