They Ruined It!

[afromaiko]

Hey!

About 7 years ago I lived in Japan for a bit. Got onto a great drop - Kiring Ichiban Shibori (roughly translated to 'first drip (coffee).' Damn that baby was good with the summer barbecues (the Japanese rival us for beer and barbecues).

Fast Forward 6-7 years.

I was checking out the impo.rted isle and came across it here. I blinked, I rechecked the label - Gold!

Or...not!

It tasted bad. Like metallic, might as well have bought west end (in a can even), bad. I am soooo dissapointed *cries* What happened?

EDIT: Ooops, Kirin Ichiban Shibori.

Go to a Japanese supermarket and you'll be able to buy the real imported stuff, in the 500ml cans too! I can get it cheaper than the BUL from the bottle-o!!

Actually it translates as 'first press', which is more akin to wine making than anything to do with beer. For all the raving they do about the malt it's at least 20% rice in there anyway so why bother? There's not much malt taste there, mostly just the noble hops. My guess is that they use the subsequent runnings to make the regular Kirin lager, which tastes very similar but is slightly less hoppy.

I've got a Kirin all grain clone on tap at the moment and it's pretty darn close, we had some real stuff for comparison the other night. If anything my brew was fresher and a little more flavour. Just the way I like it!

EDIT: You might like to try the Sapporo's in the giant 600ml silver cans. They are also BUL (in Canada) but they are closer to the Japanese lagers than the local Kirin. That said, I haven't had one for about a year and they were also pretty pricey back then being $8 or something each. At least they are truly imported.. from somewhere :blink:

 

[daryl5412]

People have to bear in mind that unless you have tasted a certain style / type of beer in its home country, you are really un aware of what the actual product should taste like.

Alot of people actually accociate the "imported" beer taste, to be different to the BUL which is brewed here.

This "imported" profile, most of the time, is light struck / slightly funked beer because of shipping and bad handling, even more so in flint bottles (clear)

Do an experiment. Put VB in a clear stubbie, re-seal and sit it in the sun for 4 hours.

Re-chill and give it to your mates, tell them its imported pils. They wont know any better. :icon_cheers:

 

[peas_and_corn]

I tried Kirin (bought form a vending machine of course!) while in Japan recently- it's pretty ordinary.

 

[afromaiko]

I tried Kirin (bought form a vending machine of course!) while in Japan recently- it's pretty ordinary.

But... but... it says on the label that it's Number 1.

And don't those vending machines rock!

 

[peas_and_corn]

They're awesome. I bought fresh popped popcorn from one I also read that VB is number 1 here, so I decided to get a slab, as it must be awesome

 

[afromaiko]

They're awesome. I bought fresh popped popcorn from one I also read that VB is number 1 here, so I decided to get a slab, as it must be awesome

I always recommend it to my Japanese friends that come over. It's a laugh hearing them try to order a 'BB' at the bar. I remember stupidly paying about $10 for a bottle of imported VB in Osaka, wonder if they'll start making it BUL over there? :lol:

 

[peas_and_corn]

Nah, they're too busy enjoying their cheap scotch... lucky $&#%*

 

[afromaiko]

Nah, they're too busy enjoying their cheap scotch... lucky $&#%*

For relaxing times, make it Suntory time. :icon_drunk:

 

[Bribie G]

If Stella has been taken back "into Belgian Hands" What about Stella on tap? Surely that (as opposed to the bottles) is BUL? I can't see them transporting kegs around the planet for a draught beer.. of course specialty pubs have Old Speckled Hen and Wells Bombardier but they are in a different category and we're only talking a handful of pubs in each capital city. What I'm referring to here is the mass Stella at the RSL or the pint I had at the Station Hotel in Caboolture when I got off the train the other day. Pleasant pint but not the luscious malt and hops flavour you used to get with the imported Stella at the Elephant and Wheelbarrow a few years ago.

 

[Steve Lacey]

Real Ichiban Shibori is nothing special in my books. Just another inoffensive light lager with a slightly more pleasant hop bite than some similar brands.

Afromaiko got closest with the translation, but it is literally "to squeeze" rather than press. As in when wringing out a towel. The little hot towel in yu get in Japanese restaurants or on JAL (or QANTAS-JAL codeshares) is called an o-shibori　（お絞り).

Actually I had a Lowenbrau in a can the other day, BUL by Asahi. Tasted like Asahi Super Dry

Now, Sapporo Edelpils, there is a commercial light lager to get your teeth into!

 

[Tanga]

Go to a Japanese supermarket and you'll be able to buy the real imported stuff, in the 500ml cans too! I can get it cheaper than the BUL from the bottle-o!!

Actually it translates as 'first press', which is more akin to wine making than anything to do with beer. For all the raving they do about the malt it's at least 20% rice in there anyway so why bother? There's not much malt taste there, mostly just the noble hops. My guess is that they use the subsequent runnings to make the regular Kirin lager, which tastes very similar but is slightly less hoppy.

I've got a Kirin all grain clone on tap at the moment and it's pretty darn close, we had some real stuff for comparison the other night. If anything my brew was fresher and a little more flavour. Just the way I like it!

EDIT: You might like to try the Sapporo's in the giant 600ml silver cans. They are also BUL (in Canada) but they are closer to the Japanese lagers than the local Kirin. That said, I haven't had one for about a year and they were also pretty pricey back then being $8 or something each. At least they are truly imported.. from somewhere :blink:

Thanks - will definitely check out the Japanese supermarket next time I'm in town - not sure if they sell it in SA, but it's worth a shot. It makes me cry to remember how cheap booze was over there. Lived just across a rice paddy (not exaggerating for effect) from a place called 'Yamaya' - Deli / Imported foods / Booze shop. Good beer, about half the price it is here now.

 

[Weizguy]

I'm not happy with BUL either, FWIW.

I bought a Heineken at a pub (about a year ago) and it was gutless. No hesitation in stating that. Just poor.

If the Heiney guys are so keen to maintain their product quality, they need to travel about and rate the beers, AT THE PUBs, and cut the pub off if they're not looking after the serving side...just like Guinness do in Britain (or so I'm advised).

 

[andrewg1978]

I tried Kirin (bought form a vending machine of course!) while in Japan recently- it's pretty ordinary.

There is nothing quite like buying a couple of 600ml cans from a machine and the drinking them at 500km/hr on the bullet train!

But then again with their work culture, I would probably need this every day as well - 2 weeks work there was enough came back to OZ for a holiday! :icon_cheers:

 

[Snow]

Real Ichiban Shibori is nothing special in my books. Just another inoffensive light lager with a slightly more pleasant hop bite than some similar brands.

Afromaiko got closest with the translation, but it is literally "to squeeze" rather than press. As in when wringing out a towel. The little hot towel in yu get in Japanese restaurants or on JAL (or QANTAS-JAL codeshares) is called an o-shibori　（お絞り).

Actually I had a Lowenbrau in a can the other day, BUL by Asahi. Tasted like Asahi Super Dry

Now, Sapporo Edelpils, there is a commercial light lager to get your teeth into!

Steve, that Edelpils sounds interesting. Any tasting notes? I'm heading to Shiga Kogen in january for some skiing, so will keep an eye out for this one!

Cheers - Snow

 

[Steve Lacey]

Tasting notes for Edelpils. Yes. A crisp and hoppy German-style lager with a half-decent malt backbone. No shortage of noble hops, both flavour and aroma.

Another guy has a little more to say about it.

Note that it has only recently been released in cans and bottles (used to be strictly in kegs and not that widely available) and nobody knows if it is a perennial addition to the lineup or the macro version of a seasonal. Some of the macros here go in for seasonals, you see. For example Kirin's Aki-aji (taste of autumn) is released in late summer (should be out soon in fact) through to December, which is about when Sapporo's Winter's Tale kicks in. They are both still lagers, but the Aki-aji is quite robust malty with earthy hops. I can't remember anything really outstanding about Winter's Tale. I think it is about 6% abv. How quickly we forget. (Ah, Tod Alstrom's review at the bottom of this page probably explains why I can't remember it). Comes in a few different label designs though, like this variant.

Snow, actually Shiga Kogen has an extremely good craft brewery. I'd suggest you don't need to look much beyond that, at least during the skiing part of the trip. If you spend any time in Tokyo just-cj, myself and a few others will introduce you to some of the other Japan craft beer bounty.

 

[Jazzafish]

Having worked as a brewer in a BUL premise I can honestly say that every batch is brewed to the supplied spec. Not only specs of the final product, but throughout every process. Very strict and constantly recorded. The brew/mash lauter specs, fermentation specs, filtration specs and bright beer specs require lots of samples and specific targets to meet the specifications of the recipe. Some recipes allow for a bit of tolerance... EG: A bright beer target EBC of 10 +/-2 EBC. Others recipes are not as easy going.

Despite this, the beer will never taste exactly the same if it is brewed somewhere else. Why? Well to be brief:

*Simply replacing a kettle will result in a different beer. Especially if you majorly alter your capacity. The heating change will affect colour and flavour. The bitterness utilisation will change... basically everything changes in a different brewhouse.

*Some brewerys contract to BUL facilities because they want to save on importing costs. So sending all of their ingredients defeats the purpose. So they often use the available base malt to the BUL brewery. Try brewing a pilsner with 100% Weyermann pilsner and compare it to 100% JW pilsner. Get my point?

*BUL breweries will brew tonnes of base malt per day... Basically the malt where I worked came in 1 tonne sacks with batch and lot numbers. When these numbers changed we took a grist sample. The size and colour of the "same" base malt would vary in size and colour before the mash. You can go in many directions from here, but the point I'm making is every few grain husks will come from a different sprout/patch of dirt and will therefore be different. Even from the same farm. Let alone a different country!

*BUL premises will brew to order, so you rarely get the chance to blend batches. Breweries that brew the same beer day in and day out can blend every batch to lessen the result of seasonal change.

I can go on... but my point is the fault often lies with the "specs." They give the same results on paper and to the eye, but will taste different. Just another part of brewing. That said one batch of BUL stella will be pretty dam close to another batch of BUL Stella... but still different from the imported stuff.

Calling it the same beer will always be a debate... but the nature of the beer business. They brew for cash, we brew for taste. If you don't like what they do, don't buy it. Problem will solve itself if everyone follows suit.

 

[gibbocore]

great post.

 

[HoppingMad]

If Stella has been taken back "into Belgian Hands" What about Stella on tap? Surely that (as opposed to the bottles) is BUL? I can't see them transporting kegs around the planet for a draught beer.. of course specialty pubs have Old Speckled Hen and Wells Bombardier but they are in a different category and we're only talking a handful of pubs in each capital city. What I'm referring to here is the mass Stella at the RSL or the pint I had at the Station Hotel in Caboolture when I got off the train the other day. Pleasant pint but not the luscious malt and hops flavour you used to get with the imported Stella at the Elephant and Wheelbarrow a few years ago.

What's intriguing about the Stella story is from memory Matilda Bay Brewing Co (of Redback fame) were doing the BUL for Oz Stella. Happened when Carlton Special Beverages/CUB acquired it. Remember the barman at the Redback Hotel in North Melbourne proudly proclaiming the Stella was brewed on premise in their microbrewery (Largely for Vic - this is early days and sales of the stuff hadn't gone nuts, talking mid/late 90s). Could be that the WA Stella was initially done via facilities there but don't know. Remember thinking that the Redback and the Stella had a lot of similar flavours when I tried one pot after the other on premise there - now hearing Jazz's comments above its starting to make more sense - probably similar base ingredients being used to cut costs. Now that he says even changing a kettle can change the characteristics (and Redback Hotel no longer brew on premise or could cope with the volumes that sell of the stuff), that would explain again why there's a whole lot of different stuff going on tastewise.

That said, Jazz has a point - if we don't like the tastes of these phoney 'imports', let's stick to what we make ourselves! :icon_chickcheers:

Hopper.

 

[Millet Man]

Snow, actually Shiga Kogen has an extremely good craft brewery. I'd suggest you don't need to look much beyond that, at least during the skiing part of the trip. If you spend any time in Tokyo just-cj, myself and a few others will introduce you to some of the other Japan craft beer bounty.

Greatest regret of all my years traveling throughout Japan is that I never got to explore the craft brew scene. Too many nights in back alley sushi bars drinking Asahi / Sapporo or whiskey / sho-chu to get out and check the scene.

Cheers, Andrew.

 

[Steve Lacey]

Greatest regret of all my years traveling throughout Japan is that I never got to explore the craft brew scene.

Andrew, depending on when that was there may have either not been any craft beer scene to check (pre 1993) or it may not have been worth checking out (pre 1998). The scene was pretty crazy with a lot moe misses than hits until about ten years ago, then there was a thinning out of all the clueless operators. In the last five years we have seen the emergence of an upper echelon of maybe twenty breweries who make very well crafted interesting beers, below which there is an iceburg of places that churn out well-crafted-but-ho-hum-show-me-something-else pilsener, dunkle, and weizen (and/or perhaps a koelsch). There are also still a few dogs around, but fortunately most have passed away.