Thanks! And More Help Needed On My Pilsner Attempt

[jamespfoster]

Guys,

Firstly - thanks to everyone for their advice (both on questions I have asked, as well as the rest of the stored advice on this site).
I'm sitting down as I type enjoying my first ever bottle of home brew (and it's a cracker)!

My 2nd brew (Fat Yak clone) is about to be bottled tomorrow and so I'm starting to plan for my 3rd - a Pilsner.

I (unlike a few on this site it would seem) enjoy Pilsners/Lagers (almost as much as Ales) and given that I have just sorted out an old fridge and temperature control set-up, definitely want to have a crack at a proper Lager style.


I am pretty sorted with the recipe (using a Coopers Pilsner Kit, LME, Saaz Hops and Saflager w34/70 yeast). I am also planning on using a 12-14 degree ferment. After talking to my LHBS, I will pitch the yeast at 23 degrees and slowly bring the temp down to 12.
Given that approach, (especially after reading How To Brew) it seems I should be doing a diacetyl rest.
Big question - how to you know when to increase the temperature for the rest period? Given that it needs to be done before primary fermentation is complete - is this a case of trying to calculate FG and then monitoring the gravity before it gets to that point?

I am also assuming that after the d-rest (for 1 or 2 days), I should rack to a secondary for the lagering phase (I'm aiming for 2-4 degrees for a few weeks). Or should I rack to the secondary before the d-rest? It is all a bit bloody confusing (and that's after reading 68 forum posts).
And the other question would relate to dry hopping (I was planning on boiling some of the Saaz hops as well as drop hopping). Not sure where/when in the process I should add the dry hops (after a few days of fermentation, after the d-rest, after racking etc etc).

Any help or guidance on this would be great!
And of course I know that a good beer could be produced without a d-rest, without racking and without lagering (etc) - however I did want to try to have a 'good' attempt at my first lager

Thanks again!

 

[waggastew]

Firstly, there is alot of conflicting information out there about how to best brew a lager. There are however some general trends that seem to be common:

1. Pitch alot of yeast. You could make a starter with your pack of dry yeast, or buy another one or two and pitch two/three packets

2. Ferment low (12degC) although there are some threads on AHB re: warm ferments with lager yeast

3. Ferment long, at least three weeks is pretty normal

In terms of your questions

1. How to you know when to increase the temperature for the rest period? Given that it needs to be done before primary fermentation is complete - is this a case of trying to calculate FG and then monitoring the gravity before it gets to that point?

The last 20% of fermentation has been mentioned. ie a lager starting at 1.044 and predicted to finish at 1.010 can be warmed up when it hits 1.018 or so. Again there are no hard and fast rules and by that stage the ferment may be going quite slowly. Don't worry too much, even if you wait for it to get lower the amount of yeast available should still be fine

3. I am also assuming that after the d-rest (for 1 or 2 days), I should rack to a secondary for the lagering phase (I'm aiming for 2-4 degrees for a few weeks). Or should I rack to the secondary before the d-rest?

Rack after the D-rest. Putting the beer into secondary before laering is good practice but can cause probs re: infection and aeration. Would probably only rack to secondary if you can rack into a keg or similar. Otherwise the risks may outweigh the benfits.

4. Not sure where/when in the process I should add the dry hops (after a few days of fermentation, after the d-rest, after racking etc etc).

Most commercial lagers are not dry hopped. This is no reason not to dry hop but f you are aiming for something along the lines of a commercial beer you may not want to dry hop. I would suggest focussing on a short boil with some LDME/or at least putting your hops on some boiling water and using the hop tea.

Good luck and report back on how you go. I have tried four kits and bits lagers and they have all been very drinkable, if not exactly like a commercial lager. Its a difficult style to nail but that just adds to the challenge. My next attempts with be extract based and will incorporate the following ideas.

1. Use a big starter (5L) of the Danish lager yeast
2. Pitch at 10degC and ferment at 12degC
3. Overdo the bittering hops to give me some compensation for the sweetness that seems to be a feature of extract lagers
4. D-rest then lager in primary at 2degC for at least 2 weeks

All of the above is just my opinion, you will get plenty of those on AHB ;-)

Stew

 

[going down a hill]

Your own beer tastes the best! I can give you a bit of advice but I'm still getting my head around a lot of stuff myself, so take this info with a pinch of salt.

If you can, ferment at 9-10c, the colder you ferment the cleaner it tastes with both ales and lagers.

I have used w34/70 yeast once before and I pitched at 12c and fermented at 10c. It was my first lager and I didn't get any diacetyl. Diacetyl happens at higher temps, the yeast then cleans it up at those temps as well. I'm not suggesting not doing a d-rest but it worked out ok for me.

You should do the d-rest when you are around 5sg points to fg, when you take samples don't tip it back in the fermenter for it'll most likely cause infections. Use this link http://www.brewcraft.com.au/wa.asp?idWebPa...p;idDetails=172 to calculate what your FG will be.

Screw racking to a secondary. The only time I do that is when I bulk prime before bottling. From what I know you dont dry hop lagers. Ive done three lagers and none of them needed dry hopping.

 

[jamespfoster]

Thanks for the advice so far guys.
I will definitely rethink my dry hop strategy as well as if I rack to secondary.

I am assuming that given you guys don't rack to secondary (but still lager for a few weeks), you haven't had any problems with autolysis?

 

[jamespfoster]

Just an update to this - managed to get around to putting this together last week (on the 3rd).
Pitched the yeast (packet of w34/70 as well as the coopers lager yeast) into the wort at about 23 degrees and then brought the temp down to about 14 over a few hours (a bit quicker than I was expecting).
OG was 1045
Have managed to keep the temp around/under 14 for the week.
Using Ian's spreadsheet I was aiming for a FG around the 1010/1012 mark. Checked the SG yesterday (only 6 days in) and it was already at 1012. WTF?

Have brought it up to 19 degrees for a d-rest, it *seems* to taste OK at this point - any idea why the fermentation would be so fast?
I had a temperature monitor in my fermentation fridge (which records max/mins) so I know the temp has been steady.
I was expecting a few weeks at that temperature with a proper lager yeast....

Thanks again for the great advice so far.

 

[kelbygreen]

well try to keep lager yeast at 10-12 but 14 should be ok but I would of tried to keep it down. A higher fermentation temp will make it ferment out faster. The coopers lager is a hybrid of lager and ale yeast if I remember correctly, I myself would of pitched 2 packs of proper lager yeast at 12c and fermented at that.

If it taste ok that no need to fuss about it just leave it and you will find out how it comes out later

 

[blakie21]

I think 6 days would be about right at that temperature. My pilsner using S-189 is down to around 1.015 after 6 days and that was at 11-12 degrees!

If it tastes good then dont stress

 

[muthead]

4. D-rest then lager in primary at 2degC for at least 2 weeks

Stew

Hi Guys,

I currently have a lager and a pilsner down, both extract. My question is about D-rest. Am I to assume that during the D-rest the last part of fermentation will occur, or do I need to drop her back down to 11c after a D-rest to make sure it is complete?

Cheers,
Mut

 

[kelbygreen]

no leave it at d-rest temps till its finished.

 

[jamespfoster]

well try to keep lager yeast at 10-12 but 14 should be ok but I would of tried to keep it down. A higher fermentation temp will make it ferment out faster. The coopers lager is a hybrid of lager and ale yeast if I remember correctly, I myself would of pitched 2 packs of proper lager yeast at 12c and fermented at that.

If it taste ok that no need to fuss about it just leave it and you will find out how it comes out later

Thanks guys - didn't really think about the impact of using the Coopers Lager yeast as well (added it given the concerns of getting fermentation started as well as the advice of the LHBS). Will definitely use the 'good stuff' only next time and get the temp down to 10-12.

Am going to rack to secondary after the d-rest is done and lager for a few weeks - so hopefully all of this time will be worth it...