Tart beer tastes

[TimT]

Interesting theory, I think it pretty unlikely since though I've had infections in the past nothing consistently indicating the type of infection you are mentioning; I've had some tart tasting brews go through all the stages of primary and secondary fermentation satisfactorily otherwise. And since there's another obvious cause that seems to have been mentioned several times on this site - dark grains affecting the PH - I tend to assume that's what it is. I'll see how this one turns out.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

Just curious though, I've never heard of dark grains causing 'tart' flavour in beer, rather more a harsh, 'dry' bitter astringency. Anyway, I'm looking forward to following how it goes!

 

[TimT]

Just tasting the dark grain wort on its own I certainly got that dry bitter astringency you talk of, the sort that gives a good stout or porter a bit of zing, if you know what I mean It may be a combination of factors: the PH the grains give to the wort; the alterations in PH through fermentation; the PH of my water.... amongst others. Well, we shall see.

 

[TimT]

Just requoting this, with the relevant question bolded, in case folks who come in late skim over it

So, I have completed a dark brew this morning. Ingredients were simple: equal parts vienna malt and rye malt, with a small bit of chocolate malt to give it colour.

I steeped the dark malt overnight in water in the fridge. Did a long mash at around 64/65 degrees, drained that off, and then did a second mash to get residual sugars out, in plenty of water as I wouldn't be bothering with sparging. Drained that off, and I had enough for the boil.

Added the chocolate malt wort late in the boil, 10 minutes before the end.

So, by avoiding mashing with chocolate malt hopefully I've avoided acidifying the mash. By not sparging, I trust I've avoided adding harsh flavours to the brew. And by adding the chocolate malt 10 minutes before the end, I hope I've got the flavour in without creating too much acidity.

My biggest problem with this brew so far is by adding some wort to the boil so late I've effectively ended up with a bit too much wort, so the brew is a little under gravity. That's not a terrible problem to have. Apparently it's 1.050. I will recalibrate next time I do this, and add another 10 minutes to the boil time.

So as a follow up, I have a question about the acidification of the wort during the boil: how exactly does this happen? Is it simply due to the fact that the concentration of the low PH dark malts in the brew increases, or does some type of chemical reaction happen to make the PH increase?

If it's just due to the increasing concentration of dark malts in the brew then I may not have avoided all of the dreaded tart tastes - but this will be a learning experience anyway Hopefully the alterations to my mashing process will have made some positive contributions to flavour.

 

[manticle]

So, I have completed a dark brew this morning. Ingredients were simple: equal parts vienna malt and rye malt, with a small bit of chocolate malt to give it colour.

I steeped the dark malt overnight in water in the fridge. Did a long mash at around 64/65 degrees, drained that off, and then did a second mash to get residual sugars out, in plenty of water as I wouldn't be bothering with sparging. Drained that off, and I had enough for the boil.

Added the chocolate malt wort late in the boil, 10 minutes before the end.

So, by avoiding mashing with chocolate malt hopefully I've avoided acidifying the mash. By not sparging, I trust I've avoided adding harsh flavours to the brew. And by adding the chocolate malt 10 minutes before the end, I hope I've got the flavour in without creating too much acidity.

My biggest problem with this brew so far is by adding some wort to the boil so late I've effectively ended up with a bit too much wort, so the brew is a little under gravity. That's not a terrible problem to have. Apparently it's 1.050. I will recalibrate next time I do this, and add another 10 minutes to the boil time.

So as a follow up, I have a question about the acidification of the wort during the boil: how exactly does this happen? Is it simply due to the fact that the concentration of the low PH dark malts in the brew increases, or does some type of chemical reaction happen to make the PH increase?

If it's just due to the increasing concentration of dark malts in the brew then I may not have avoided all of the dreaded tart tastes - but this will be a learning experience anyway Hopefully the alterations to my mashing process will have made some positive contributions to flavour.

Second mash sounds like a batch sparge.
Wort is naturally acidic - darker the grain, the lower the pH of the mash and subsequent wort.
Hopefully I haven't missed what you are asking.
Grain astringency I would describe as something that you feel at the sides of the tongue, like sucking a used teabag - slightly drying. Tart makes me think of lemon curd or unripe granny smith apples.

Which is yours?

 

[Vini2ton]

Tannic?

 

[TimT]

Someone commented that it's good to add dark grain worts to the brew quite late in the boil as the wort will keep acidifying, so I was inquiring about what was going on there - if adding dark grain at that point would make for the usual acidity, or if something else happens in the boil (sugars breaking up/caramelising) that contributes to acidification.

Er, I'd describe the taste as in between the two perhaps. Bit of sour, bit of dry astringency? It's my impression of herbal beers that often flavours created by the yeast will be more strongly accentuated; the hops don't alter them or hide them. Often one of these flavours seems to be a sourness.

 

[TimT]

I'm just sampling a brew that I started under this new regime. Early days yet - it's still warm, hasn't been carbed yet, and so on - but I think the tartness/astringency may be less in this brew.

It's got cloves - which will add to the astringency, in a pleasant way, I hope - and vanilla - which might take an edge of the astringency. So, not sure how these are influencing the flavour!

It does, though, have a pleasant sweet-sour that I notice to a lot of my herbal concoctions. The cloveiness gives it a lovely winterish feel, like a mulled wine.

I'll wait until it's bottled, fully carbed, and chilled; so the verdict will come in a few weeks.

 

[Grott]

Sounds interesting TimT. Are the cloves dominant to taste and release clove oil into the brew?
Cheers

 

[TimT]

Oh yes, definite clove taste. I wanted it because, well, there weren't going to be any hops anyway, so that freed me up to some extent to throw lots of an ingredient in that you're usually advised to hold back on.