Style of the Week 31/5/06 - IPA

[Trough Lolly]

To paraphrase something I'm working on (nominally) at the moment.

I do not focus on the origin or postulated origin of the term IPA, and on what it may have meant initially. This represents one single phase in its existence, while the initial meaning, tentatively reconstructed by later researchers, does not determine later ones.

:excl:
Stuster, that logic, as Kai has more eloquently put it, quite simply a w@nk...
An India Pale Ale is exactly that - if the Americans, Swedes or Turks want to brew a beer that uses a similar grain bill to an IPA with their own regional hops added, then it can't be called an IPA. I have some grapes in the back yard here in Canberra - I'm going to make a Coonawarra Red with them. Is that ok?
We might as well call my Munich malt laden, Goldings hopped old ale an Alt so it sells better!! h34r:
TL
"....if she floats, then she's a witch.....and we?......BURN HER!"

 

[Stuster]

So your porters use authentic grain bills do they? From which period? Which one is the 'real' porter? I hope you are not making any beers you may call Kolsch, or can you see the Kolner Dom from Canberra? If you don't use IPA to describe this style, what will you use? Isn't it just a handy way to refer to this style? This is how language evolves, whether you think it's a w@nk or not.

Anyway, I don't want to argue about the name of the product, I was hoping to have a brewing discussion. If everyone prefers, shall we keep this to (English) IPAs. Tony, I bet you knew just what you were up to suggesting IPA!

Perhaps including two distinct styles like this is too broad. It may be better to stick to one sub-style in these threads to avoid confusion/argument. I was thinking of one style of lager next time, with the nice cool weather at the mo. Any suggestions?

Trying desperately to get back on topic, I used WLP023 Burton ale yeast for the last IPA I did. It's a nice yeast IMO, but that IPA didn't come out quite right (probably just the ESB kit as Steve commented). What yeasts do you like for this style?

 

[Stuster]

Edited for no good reason: Can't resist a stir after all. (Just for fun really, I do get your point.)

Tony, you shouldn't be using Northdown as that is a Northern Brewer cross with a German hop. pbrosnan, you shouldn't be using that Target as that is also a Northern Brewer cross. NB is a cross of an American female with an English male.

 

[Trough Lolly]

So your porters use authentic grain bills do they? From which period? Which one is the 'real' porter? I hope you are not making any beers you may call Kolsch, or can you see the Kolner Dom from Canberra? If you don't use IPA to describe this style, what will you use? Isn't it just a handy way to refer to this style? This is how language evolves, whether you think it's a w@nk or not.

I totally agree with you Stuster - I don't want to argue the name of a product either; because there is no argument...an IPA is English - end of story. If you want to make an IPA with US hops then go for it - and enjoy it, but don't call it an IPA because you've made an American Pale Ale, based on an India Pale Ale recipe. It's not elitism or snobbery etc, it's just fact. There's nothing wrong with an IPA modified with US hops (and by that I mean hops that are recognised as having cultivars originating from the US) - in fact I quite enjoy them!
To answer your question, I use Bairds Pale Ale malt, Barret and Burston Crystal and Pale Choc malt in combo with EKG hops for bittering and flavouring and a bit of fuggles for aroma. Wyeast London 1028 ale yeast is nice too, so I suppose it might be considered to be an IPA.

Tony, you shouldn't be using Northdown as that is a Northern Brewer cross with a German hop. pbrosnan, you shouldn't be using that Target as that is also a Northern Brewer cross. NB is a cross of an American female with an English male.

Ok...
UK Northdown was bred by Dr. Ray A. Neve at Wye College ENGLAND in 1961 from a Northern Brewer female plant and a downy resistant male.
UK Target is another successful variety bred by Dr. Ray A. Neve in 1965 in ENGLAND and is closely related to Northdown, Challenger, Progress, Eastwell Golding and Northern Brewer.
Northern Brewer and several other varieties, including Bullion, were bred by Professor E.S. Salmon at Wye College ENGLAND in a search for disease resistance. He raised it in 1934 from a female Cantebury Golding pollinated with a male seedling (reference OB21). The OB21 cultivar was obtained by crossing Brewers Gold with the "Californian" male plant, referred to as OY1. OY1 was obtained in 1914 from E.C. Horst, who was at the time, engaged with the British Columbia Hop Company. Horst stated that it's origin was "The Russian River, Mendocino County, California, USA" - you can google earth it if you want...It was named "North Brewer" because a brewing company in the north of Britain (Scottish and Newcastle) had been very interested in the breeding of a high alpha (7 to 9%) and good aroma variety.
Data Source: here...
Cheers,
TL

 

[Lukes]

Yep I.P.A'S are a great topic for a heated disscussion.

!@#$%^&^&**&^$%$#
I have some English 2 row comming on's the bulk malt order later this month.
So now I can make and authentic one too.
Now I just have to get some Authentic english hops and a water profile and some oak for the bright beer cask and a tall ship and some.....

Luke

 

[Trough Lolly]

Yep I.P.A'S are a great topic for a heated disscussion.

!@#$%^&^&**&^$%$#
I have some English 2 row comming on's the bulk malt order later this month.
So now I can make and authentic one too.
Now I just have to get some Authentic english hops and a water profile and some oak for the bright beer cask and a tall ship and some.....

Luke

:lol:

 

[bconnery]

What if we called American Indian Pale Ales
(Apologies for a lack of PC there but I couldn't let that one pass)

If you can have an American Pale Ale, why not an American India Pale Ale? Both would appear to be regional variations on a historical style.

Somehow 'Robustly hopped American Pale Ale with an English type Grain Bill' doesn't seem to roll of the tongue

 

[Trough Lolly]

You're referring to the ANIPA - American Native Indian Pale Ale!!
Another ANIPA? You little rippa!

sorry....

 

[KoNG]

Lucky its your thread Stuster, so if you want everyone to also discuss AMERICAN IPA's you can, maybe in your first post you could just add the link to the BJCP style like you did for the english one. The following is from BeerSmith.

American IPA
India Pale Ale (IPA)


Type: Ale
Category Number: 14B
Original Gravity: 1.056-1.075 SG
Color: 11.8-29.6 EBC
Final Gravity: 1.010-1.018 SG Bitterness: 40.0-65.0 IBU
Carbonation: 2.2-2.7 vols Alcohol by Volume: 5.5-7.5 %
Description: An American version of the English IPA style that uses American ingredients and has an American style to it. Intense hoppy, citrusy, floral - typical of American hops variety used.
Profile: Smooth, medium body with medium to high hop flavor. Hops may be citrusy, floral, resinous, piny or fruity. Low to med malt flavor. Med gold to reddish color. Clear. Med to Med-high carbonation.
Ingredients: American pale ale malt (well modified), American hops and yeast. Yeast may give a clean or slightly fruity palate. Often a single infusion mash is used. Water character may vary.
Examples: Stone IPA, Victory Hop Devil, Anderson Valley Hop Ottin', Anchor Liberty Ale, Sierra Nevada Celebration Ale, Harpoon IPA, Avery IPA, Founder's Centennial IPA

 

[Tony]

Quote

Let the arguments........... oops, discussions begin

As far as yeasts go I am using wyeast 1335 british ale II but my last one used the burton ale yeast. I think its a bit to fruity for the IPA style as its suposed to be more bitter and drier with less fruitness than a pommy pale ale.
I am hoping the 1335 comes through for me.

I have used 1275 a lot latly and recon it would be up to the task no worries. Clean and crisp dry finish but accentuates the malt and hops well.

on the hops.......

If my mun and dad are chinese and im born in sydney, does that make me chinese.
My northdown and target wewre born in england and aregenerally considered as english hops.

And i dont care cause they teste good........ better than the pine trees the yanks mince up to make hop pellets.

Just my opinion.

Ahhhhhhhh i bit at the stir didnt I

hehe

cheers

 

[Mr Bond]

Top Link TL.
Plenty of reference material/info there for a beer geek to salivate over.
saved to the "Special Folder"

 

[Kai]

So your porters use authentic grain bills do they? From which period? Which one is the 'real' porter? I hope you are not making any beers you may call Kolsch, or can you see the Kolner Dom from Canberra? If you don't use IPA to describe this style, what will you use? Isn't it just a handy way to refer to this style? This is how language evolves, whether you think it's a w@nk or not.

My philosophy is that you can use any ingredient you please when you're brewing to style, so long as it matches the flavour profile. I'll use American hops in an IPA if the flavour in the final product is one similar to an IPA made with more traditional English hops. That's something you'll never get from those big citrusy hops in an American IPA, so I don't understand your thrust here.

You're referring to the ANIPA - American Native Indian Pale Ale!!
Another ANIPA? You little rippa!

sorry....

I brewed one recently, called it a Red Indian Pale Ale.

 

[Darren]

Quote

Let the arguments........... oops, discussions begin


My northdown and target wewre born in england and aregenerally considered as english hops.

And i dont care cause they teste good........ better than the pine trees the yanks mince up to make hop pellets.

Just my opinion.

Ahhhhhhhh i bit at the stir didnt I

hehe

cheers

Pine trees do taste better than the DIRT of English hops though

cheers

Darren

 

[T.D.]

The fact is beer styles evolve, variants of the original are inevitable. I have absolutely no problem with the Americans brewing IPAs with American hops, but I do think they should be called American IPAs, to reflect their significant deviation from the original.

A bit off topic, but this reminds me of the "evolution of the English language" argument. Some people are outraged by the way that the English language is evolving to a point where grammer, spelling etc is no longer as important. Its all relative of course. Those same people are not advocating that we go back to speaking like Shakespeare, but perhaps if they truly believe their own doctrine, they should be! Where do you draw the line?
Its the same with the beer styles - like somebody else said, if we want to get all picky about being true to style, why would we stop at the hop variety - why not insist that any home brewed IPA be cask conditioned, and taken on a long journey in a ship's hull through equatorial waters? Not to mention extremely high carbonation. The hopping rates in "original" IPAs were also entirely different to the "modern" IPA style. The grain bills were almost all 100% pale malt (which was not the same as our modern pale malt anyway), meaning that if you use any specialty grain your are also out of style. The simple fact is that arguing about being "true to style", is futile as the style originated from conditions and circumstances that we cannot replicate. Even brewing the most accurate version possible with the ingredients available would still be MILES off what the original versions would have been like.

The evolution of style is inevitable. Look back 300 years. Pretty much every beer was black (or very dark) ale. Now look at the number of styles that are out there. They must have come from somewhere. Adaptation of various styles has happened before and its going to keep happening.

The argument of being in or out of style is totally circular and will just make everybody pi$$ed off with each other! The way I look at this stuff is use the BJCP styles as a *guide*. I try to stick to them wherever possible, but if I am out by a bit I don't stress too much.

The best way to deal with all of the style arguments is to create an official variant of the original style, which is exactly what BJCP has done with "American IPA". In my opinion that pretty much covers it.

Edit: Stuster, sorry for the OT rant session. I reckon these threads are great, and I certainly don't want to see them deviate from their intended purpose.

 

[Stuster]

Great post, TD. Top stuff. This is exactly what I have been trying to say, but you have said much more clearly. Agreed, it should be called American IPA. In the first post I just said we could combine American and English style IPAs. Next time, one sub-style. Suggestions appreciated.

I don't feel this is my thread, and as far as I am concerned people can add in whatever they want. I do hope in future we can mostly discuss ingredients, techniques etc.

Just making a clear, top-fermented German-style beer at the mo. Does it count as a Kolsch if I google pictures of the Cologne Cathedral?

 

[Trough Lolly]

The fact is beer styles evolve, variants of the original are inevitable. I have absolutely no problem with the Americans brewing IPAs with American hops, but I do think they should be called American IPAs, to reflect their significant deviation from the original.

Totally agree - which was my original point, but the Americans are brewing a pale ale. Grab a stubbie of ANY APA with the same hops as an "American IPA" to compare and have a taste test. They are very similar and it's almost a dead certainty that neither has Goldings hops or Burtonised water. It's not specifically detailed in the BJCP guide that you do this to make an IPA, but really the beers are substantially different from a real IPA, but still quite enjoyable nonetheless. I'm not intentionally a style nazi, but if we start labelling strong American Ales as IPA's then we need to wipe the slate clean and simply define beer as pale ale, brown ale, dark ale and pale lager, brown lager and dark lager....easy to define and a real mixed bag when it comes to judging them!!

Its the same with the beer styles - like somebody else said, if we want to get all picky about being true to style, why would we stop at the hop variety - why not insist that any home brewed IPA be cask conditioned, and taken on a long journey in a ship's hull through equatorial waters? Not to mention extremely high carbonation.

Exactly - no American IPA ever did that...!

The hopping rates in "original" IPAs were also entirely different to the "modern" IPA style. The grain bills were almost all 100% pale malt (which was not the same as our modern pale malt anyway), meaning that if you use any specialty grain your are also out of style. The simple fact is that arguing about being "true to style", is futile as the style originated from conditions and circumstances that we cannot replicate. Even brewing the most accurate version possible with the ingredients available would still be MILES off what the original versions would have been like.
The evolution of style is inevitable. Look back 300 years. Pretty much every beer was black (or very dark) ale. Now look at the number of styles that are out there. They must have come from somewhere. Adaptation of various styles has happened before and its going to keep happening.

Agreed - and since the "original" hops and malt aren't available, I try to buy a close substitute to remain faithful to the original intent. So I buy other ENGLISH malts and hops to try to get back to what was originally made - buying hops made on another continent is not a close substitute. Even Yakima Goldings is a pushing things but then again, we aren't talking about building sheep stations, are we?
By the same token, when I make my SNPA clone, the Goldings stays in the freezer and out come the US hops and Chico Ale yeast!

The argument of being in or out of style is totally circular and will just make everybody pi$$ed off with each other! The way I look at this stuff is use the BJCP styles as a *guide*. I try to stick to them wherever possible, but if I am out by a bit I don't stress too much.
The best way to deal with all of the style arguments is to create an official variant of the original style, which is exactly what BJCP has done with "American IPA". In my opinion that pretty much covers it.
Edit: Stuster, sorry for the OT rant session. I reckon these threads are great, and I certainly don't want to see them deviate from their intended purpose.

Totally agree - the BJCP style guidelines are exactly that...a guide. I brew what I like to drink - and to hell with it if my beer is not exactly to style - but if I'm putting together a beer with the intention of copying a particular brand or style of beer, then I try to replicate the style's recipe and ingredients otherwise I'm just kidding myself, but still making beer I enjoy!
Cheers,
TL

 

[Josh]

Okay. First of all great topic for the first style of the week. I am now planning on brewing one of these when I return from the Gold Coast.

Here is my imaginatively named recipe:

Josh's IPA - 24L

Burtonised water

5.75kg Maris Otter pale ale malt 96%
.255kg crystal 4%

mash 67C 60mins 2L/kg
mashout 75C, fly sparge

60g Goldings 4% 90mins
20g Goldings 4% 30mins
20g Goldings 4% 20mins
20g Goldings 4% 10mins
20g Goldings 4% 0mins
20g Goldings 4% dry in secondary

WLP007 Dry English Ale yeast 18C

Predicted:
Efficiency 80%
OG 1.060
FG 1.010
IBU 51
abv 6.8%keg 7.3%bottle

 

[Trough Lolly]

Looks the goods, Josh - what sort of crystal are you using? Get some non-pale crystal if you can so you don't end up with a really pale IPA - er, not that there's anything wrong with that!! If you are using a pale crystal, you might want to toss in 50g of choc malt to give it a bit of colour...and the 90 minute boil is a good move to get the melanoidins going in that wonderful MO malt!
...and enjoying it during the forthcoming test series!!
GO AUSSIES!
Cheers,
TL

 

[Trough Lolly]

By way of an update - I've published my standard AG IPA in the recipe section of the forum...
Cheers,
TL

 

[T.D.]

...and enjoying it during the forthcoming test series!!
GO AUSSIES!
Cheers,
TL

:lol: :lol: Nothing like sipping on a traditional English IPA while our boys belt the poms all over the park!