Style Of The Week 27/9/06 -oktoberfest/marzen

[DJR]

Bringing up an old thread i know, but i thought i'd get everyone's idea of this Marzenbier i was thinking of brewing. It was originally a Vienna lager recipe, but i've upped the OG, colour and bitterness to suit.

OG 1052, IBU 27, Colour 25EBC estimated

Grist

10% JW Pils
68% JW Light Munich
19% Weyermann Vienna
3% Weyermann Melanoidin
+30g Carafa Special III for colour adjustment at sparge

Mash - either a two step rest at 60C for 30m and then 70C for 30m, or a decoction mash 60C to 70C with a 20m boil and 10m 72C rest in the decocted portion. The decoction is probably more authentic and won't take me much more time - maybe about 10-15 minutes in the brew.

Hops

Magnum 13% 5g 60' (7.7IBU)
Taurus 14.8% 7g 60' (12.3IBU)
Saphir 4.5% 15g 25' (5.6IBU)

Basically just a bit of hop flavour from the Saphir at 15g, the Taurus and Magnum should just give a nice clean bitterness. I really want the malt to shine through.

Yeast: WLP838 S German Lager in 2-3L starter, ferment at 8C with a 24 hour d-rest before lagering at 2-4C for a month or two.

Other ingredients: Gypsum 4.2g, Epsom 1.2g, Chalk 3g. This is to try to get closer to the Vienna hard water profile, basically the Sulphate and Carbonate are almost spot on, it's hard to get enough Ca2+ and Mg2+ cations in the water without overdoing the anions though.

 

[Stuster]

I think it's great that you are posting your recipe to this thread, DJR. Just what I hoped. :super:

I can't really comment on the recipe as I've never made this style. But on the water chemistry, I think there's no real reason to add those chemicals to try to emulate Vienna water. There's a great post by TomoMeier halfway down this BB thread. Adding gypsum and epsom will accentuate the hoppiness rather than the maltiness you want to bring out. If you can get hold of any food grade CaCl that might be a good idea though. (and could you get some for me too while you're at it. :lol: )

 

[DJR]

I think it's great that you are posting your recipe to this thread, DJR. Just what I hoped. :super:

I can't really comment on the recipe as I've never made this style. But on the water chemistry, I think there's no real reason to add those chemicals to try to emulate Vienna water. There's a great post by TomoMeier halfway down this BB thread. Adding gypsum and epsom will accentuate the hoppiness rather than the maltiness you want to bring out. If you can get hold of any food grade CaCl that might be a good idea though. (and could you get some for me too while you're at it. :lol: )

Good point Stu - i have some CaCl2 on the way from NNL - they are selling 100g including postage for $3.95 on my request

 

[DJR]

I think you're on the money Stu with that post on BB, having a read of it now i agree with the points raised, especially that the big brewers probably DONT use the specific water that comes from the tap as its many flaws make for a bad brewing practice. So i put together a quick profile in Promash i called "Malty Style" with 50ppm of Calcium and Chloride, 25ppm of Sulphate, 10ppm of Mg, 5ppm of Na and 5ppm of Carbonate.

Looks like Sydney water (Prospect) has more than enough carbonate at 45ppm or so, and an addition of 0.6g Epsom and 1.8g of Calcium Chloride should get me to a nice water profile.

Anyway, hopefully the use of the JW malts shouldn't detract too much from the profile, the Roggenbier i did using mainly JW Light Munich malt tastes pretty good so here's hoping this one is the same. Might use a bit of Weyermann Caramunich though.

 

[DarkFaerytale]

so... it's nearly march, well in a month or so anyway, but thought i'd get my marzen recipe underway and was hopeing for some thoughts on my recipe

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 23.00
Total Grain (kg): 6.70
Anticipated OG: 1.060 Plato: 14.75
Anticipated SRM: 10.2
Anticipated IBU: 24.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65 %
Wort Boil Time: 150 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 36.80 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.038 SG 9.39 Plato

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
49.3 3.30 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.038 2
22.4 1.50 kg. Weyermann Munich II Germany 1.038 12
22.4 1.50 kg. Weyermann Vienna Germany 1.038 4
3.0 0.20 kg. Weyermann Caramunich III Germany 1.037 71
3.0 0.20 kg. Weyermann Wheat Dark Germany 1.039 8

Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
40.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh pellet 4.50 22.3 60 min.
12.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh pellet 4.50 1.8 15 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 2206 Bavarian Lager

after having a look at designing great beers last night i'm thinking of doing a decoction mash, it will be my first and would really like to know what people think of it (it's gonna be a long day!)

Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name:

Total Grain kg: 6.70
Total Water Qts: 14.83 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water L: 14.03 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass: 0.00
Grain Temp: 27.17 C


Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 5 45 35 35 Infuse 36 14.03 2.09
2 5 45 47 47 Decoc 100 3.28 2.50 (Decoc Thickness)
3 5 60 60 60 Decoc 100 4.51 3.13 (Decoc Thickness)
4 5 30 75 75 Decoc 100 6.86 2.50 (Decoc Thickness)


Total Water Qts: 14.83 - After Additional Infusions
Total Water L: 14.03 - After Additional Infusions
Total Mash Volume L: 18.51 - After Additional Infusions

do people think it's worth the decoction or should i do a step mash instead?

i don't know much about changing water profiles but i was going to add

1 tspn calcium carbonate in boil
1 tspntable salt in boil

to make the water a little harder

any coments would be greatly appretiated

cheers
-Phill

 

[Dr Gonzo]

DarkFaerytale,

Go the decoction, but make it easy on yourself.
By the look of your recipe you plan on doing a triple decoction with acid & protein rests.
With the malts you are using this is unneccessary.
Just go for a single and save yourself a couple of hours.

Mash in for 55C rest.
Pull the grain for the decoction after about 5 min.
Raise decoction to 68-70C and rest 15 min.
Boil for 15 min.
Aim for 66-67C rest after returning the decoction.
Mash out with an infusion, or just sparge with no mashout.

Hope this helps

 

[tangent]

one day you're going to have a kid and call it "decoction" Sam

 

[DarkFaerytale]

thank you Dr Gonzo, i thought it was a bit overboard, i'll keep reading more on decoction befor i do it.

-Phill

 

[Tony]

DarkFaerytale,

Go the decoction, but make it easy on yourself.
By the look of your recipe you plan on doing a triple decoction with acid & protein rests.
With the malts you are using this is unneccessary.
Just go for a single and save yourself a couple of hours.

Mash in for 55C rest.
Pull the grain for the decoction after about 5 min.
Raise decoction to 68-70C and rest 15 min.
Boil for 15 min.
Aim for 66-67C rest after returning the decoction.
Mash out with an infusion, or just sparge with no mashout.

Hope this helps

Thats exactly what i do, except i mash in for 52 deg.

I will be brewing a marzen in march for sure.

am going to brew a light pilsner forst to get the yeasties working and then its on

I even have my 1 liter steins waiting patiently

here is what i have planned

oktoberfest 2

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 54.00 Wort Size (L): 54.00
Total Grain (kg): 12.00
Anticipated OG: 1.056 Plato: 13.83
Anticipated EBC: 17.4
Anticipated IBU: 26.3
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
41.7 5.00 kg. IMC Pilsner Australia 1.038 3
25.0 3.00 kg. Weyermann Vienna Germany 1.038 7
25.0 3.00 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15
4.2 0.50 kg. Weyermann Munich II Germany 1.038 24
3.3 0.40 kg. TF Crystal UK 1.034 100
0.8 0.10 kg. Weyermann Caraaroma Germany 1.034 350

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
30.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.40 4.7 45 min.
30.00 g. Saphire Pellet 4.50 6.2 45 min.
30.00 g. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 4.50 6.2 45 min.
30.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.40 2.5 15 min.
30.00 g. Saphire Pellet 4.50 3.3 15 min.
30.00 g. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 4.50 3.3 15 min.
30.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.40 0.0 0 min.
30.00 g. Saphire Pellet 4.50 0.0 0 min.
30.00 g. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 4.50 0.0 0 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.20 Oz Irish Moss Fining 10 Min.(boil)


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP850 Copenhagen Lager


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name: pilsner Mash Double Decoction

Total Grain kg: 12.00
Total Water Qts: 38.04 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water L: 36.00 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass: 0.15
Grain Temp: 20.50 C


Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Protein rest 5 30 52 51 Infuse 57 36.00 3.00
Mash 30 60 66 65 Decoc 99 14.10 2.00 (Decoc Thickness)
mash out 30 10 71 71 Decoc 99 7.24 3.00 (Decoc Thickness)


Total Water Qts: 38.04 - After Additional Infusions
Total Water L: 36.00 - After Additional Infusions
Total Mash Volume L: 44.01 - After Additional Infusions

All temperature measurements are degrees Celsius.
All infusion amounts are in Liters.
All infusion ratios are Liters/Kilograms.

Step Time for Decoction Steps represent how far back in time the Decoction was pulled.
Infusion amounts for Decoction Steps represent the amount pulled for the Decoction.
Infusion ratios for Decoction Steps represent the Decoction Thickness.

 

[blackbock]

I had some interesting feedback on a beer that I entered into a local show beer competition just last weekend (this year they had real judges!) under the 'lager' category (only had 5 classes...) My 'Oktoberfest 08' beer certainly looked different to the other pale lagers entered, and according to one judge it resembled a 'nice scottish ale.' As weird as that might sound, there are a number of similarities, and apart from the fact that I possibly overdid the caramalt:

* long cold fermentation (particularly so in the lager case...)
* similar colour
* similar hopping
* malty
* long boil time, leading to some kettle caramelisation

As a consequence of the last point, I am wondering why 'caramel' like flavours are deemed inappropriate in an Oktoberfest?

The three judges also couldn't make up their mind whether the finish was 'sweet', 'well-balanced' or 'dry.' Personally I thought it was fairly dry. My beer was judged as 'too full of flavour for a lager.'

I guess next time I will make a kit beer with dextrose for that class..

 

[pmolou]

theres some tasty lokking recipes here but what about an extract brew,
I have an Ayinger Marzen clone from clone brews but it contains no melanoiden which i thought would be essential (PS. can that be steeped)
any idea's, Also i'm looking at a Wyeast I thought the Oktoberfest yeast would be the go but i've been told the bavarian lager is better

Anyhelp would be great I'm shooting for 23-25 IBU's 5-6% ABV
only bittering hops
caramunich
caraRed
Melanoiden
small portion of munich
but the amounts i'm not sure of as i've never used melanoiden or munich

 

[pmolou]

anyone

 

[therook]

anyone

I done an Occy last year and it was loved by everyone

3.35 kg Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (8.0 EBC) Grain 54.9 %
2.75 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (22.0 EBC) Grain 45.1 %
60.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.70%] (60 min) Hops 22.3 IBU
20.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.70%] (15 min) Hops 3.7 IBU
1.00 tsp Calcium Chloride (Mash 90.0 min) Misc
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs German Bock Lager (White Labs #WLP833)

Yeast kindly donated by TDA

Rook

 

[pmolou]

yer that does look good but i'm looking for an extract brew in particular..
As the predominant grain bill sare of vienna munich or pilsner i'm not sure what to sub for extract

 

[bconnery]

theres some tasty lokking recipes here but what about an extract brew,
I have an Ayinger Marzen clone from clone brews but it contains no melanoiden which i thought would be essential (PS. can that be steeped)
any idea's, Also i'm looking at a Wyeast I thought the Oktoberfest yeast would be the go but i've been told the bavarian lager is better

Anyhelp would be great I'm shooting for 23-25 IBU's 5-6% ABV
only bittering hops
caramunich
caraRed
Melanoiden
small portion of munich
but the amounts i'm not sure of as i've never used melanoiden or munich

pmlou,
caramunich and melanoiden can both be steeped, but you'll need to mash munich.
If you haven't done a minimash it isn't hard, it's really just a temperature controlled steep.
I used to go for 2.5L of water per kilo of grain, keep them around 65ish for 60 minutes.
Then 'sparge' by rinsing with water that is around 75C, using a similar amount of water.
You could easily add 1kg of munich.
If you take a recipe on here that has simliar grains to yours, put 1kg munich and some melanoiden and perhaps caramunich, can't give you amounts right now but it shouldn't hard to find a recipe with some guidelines, then the rest extract, bitter with noble hops and a good german yeast and you are away...

 

[A3k]

I wouldn't mind making one of these in March aswell. Good time to make my first Oktoberfest/Mrzen. What would the Wyeast 2000 Budvar be like in this. Ive got a pilsner fermenting with it at the moment and was wondering if I could use that yeast or should I get something more appropriate to an Oktoberfest such as one of these: Im guessing 2633
2124 - Bohemian Lager
2206 - Bavarian Lager
2308 - Munich Lager
2633 - Octoberfest Lager Blend

Im guessing the Hop Character and subtle fruit that the yeast imparts may be out of style for the Oktoberfest.

Wyeast 2000:
Nice malty nose, subtle fruit. Rich malt profile on palate. Finishes malty but dry, well balanced, crisp. Hop character comes through in finish.

-------------
Ive got way too many things in my to brew list at the moment.


Cheers
Al

 

[SJW]

2124 has done a great job for me in the past. I think with this style picking the yeast is the easiest part. Its a balancing act between hop bitterness and the malt. Everything needs to be perfect. A very hards style for the Homebrewer to get spot on. For me anyway.

Steve

 

[jonocarroll]

2633 - Octoberfest Lager Blend

Early, I know, but I've just done an all-grain batch with this yeast. By "just", I mean I bottled it earlier this week. 4 weeks total in the fermenter. Sample just prior to bottling was enough to make me want to open them now. Bloody marvelous! I was keen to take a few more 'samples' but decided the anticipation was good where it was.

Once it's ready, I'll be looking for opinions, so A3k - you're welcome to try some.

Back to my point - I've got a few PET bottles of washed 2633 if you'd like to trade for a bottle of something decent. I've not had a failure restarting any of my washed yeasts just yet.

 

[A3k]

Once it's ready, I'll be looking for opinions, so A3k - you're welcome to try some.

Back to my point - I've got a few PET bottles of washed 2633 if you'd like to trade for a bottle of something decent. I've not had a failure restarting any of my washed yeasts just yet.

Cool, cheers fellas. I think the 2633 would be a good option.

QB, Ill PM you about a potential swap and a taste test.

As 2633 is a blend of yeasts, will the ratios of the yeasts change for second gen?

Cheers
al

 

[jonocarroll]

As 2633 is a blend of yeasts, will the ratios of the yeasts change for second gen?

FIIK. Don't know much about this problem, and never really thought about that. Sorry. I can't imagine the balance would differ too greatly. It would be conceivable over many generations, but I'd be surprised if there was much difference just yet. Guess I'll have to brew another and find out :chug: