Style Of The Week 23/8/06 - English Barleywine

[Tim F]

Racked, held at 24C for 4 days, no change. Might be time for a different yeast, I think 1.037 is still a little high too finish!?

 

[drsmurto]

Racked, held at 24C for 4 days, no change. Might be time for a different yeast, I think 1.037 is still a little high too finish!?

Do you have any champagne yeast?

I have ~5g in my fridge you are welcome too. It's not a huge amount but if you rehydrate it first it should get it down below 1.030 which equates to 70% apparent attenuation.

Or the packet of Nottingham.

Or the M1 distillers yeast.

 

[Tim F]

That'd be awesome if you could spare a little champagne yeast! I will pm.

 

[Tim F]

Well after errr forgetting this was sitting in secondary in the corner of my study for nearly 3 months I sampled it tonight and was surprised to find it is tasting great but still 1.036. I don't think it's going any lower, time to bottle!

 

[manticle]

Something I'm looking at doing soon


Type: All grain
Size: 15 liters
Color: 40 HCU (~19 SRM)
Bitterness: 80 IBU
OG: 1.133
FG: 1.030
Alcohol: 13.3% v/v (10.4% w/w)
Grain: 8kg Simpsons MO
500g Simpsons heritage crystal
Mash: 60% efficiency,
TEMP: 55/62/68/72/78
TIME: 5/30/20/10/10
Boil: 120 minutes, SG 1.080, 25 liters
1kg Invert sugar (might incrementally feed some of this post fermentation)
Hops: 20g Target (9% AA, 90 min.)
20g Challenger (6.5% AA, 90 min.)
20g Challenger (6.5% AA, 60 min.)
40g Challenger (6.5% AA, 20 min.)

Bulk age 9-12 months.

Wyeast 1028 or similar and lots of it. May use the gyle to build a huge starter as I'll be No chilling

No sparge/very small sparge if needed. May run off some separate runnings for a small gyle.

Critique welcome

 

[black_labb]

with an og of 1133 and the crystal I'd be upping the bitterness to atleast 100ibu if not higher, even with the sugar. I'd possibly cut the sugar back a bit but that's just me.

Never done a barley wine but I've been planning one

 

[manticle]

I'm considering dropping the crystal and going all pale malt (MO).

Not sure I can get any more than 100 IBU in there theoretically.

Sugar at this point is also optional - anything from 500g to 1 kg. Might opt for 800g which is what I do with my Belgian golden strong - 200 to boil and the rest in 200g lots post fermentation.

Slight tweaking (120 min boil will mean the colour is a little darker than suggested). I'm aiming for a slightly bigger fullers golden pride type (not clone) which is about 50 IBU and 8.2%abv


Type: All grain
Size: 15 liters
Color: 11 HCU (~8 SRM)
Bitterness: 80 IBU
OG: 1.122
FG: 1.030
Alcohol: 11.9% v/v (9.3% w/w)
Grain: 8kg Simpsons MO
Mash: 60% efficiency
Boil: 120 minutes SG 1.073 25 liters
0.8kg Invert sugar (200g to boil, 200g increments post ferment)
Hops: 15g Target (9% AA, 90 min.)
15g Challenger (6.5% AA, 90 min.)
5g Target (9% AA, 60 min.)
20g Challenger (6.5% AA, 60 min.)
40g Challenger (6.5% AA, 20 min.)

 

[black_labb]

I'm considering dropping the crystal and going all pale malt (MO).

Not sure I can get any more than 100 IBU in there theoretically.

Sugar at this point is also optional - anything from 500g to 1 kg. Might opt for 800g which is what I do with my Belgian golden strong - 200 to boil and the rest in 200g lots post fermentation.

I was going to say that I would use something like biscuit or similar instead of the crystal but decided against it as that is what I would do and not necessarily better. The 100% MO would work out nicely, especially with the melanoidens from the long boil.

While it is harder to get over the 100 ibu I think with the recipe theoretical IBU will still be lower than the 80 you calculated. Adding more hops will result in diminishing returns but I'd still aim for higher bitterness.

Sounds good

 

[manticle]

Most UK things I use biscuit or victory. I guess the simpler the better with so many things going on but victory wouldn't be out of place.

I'll probably leave the hopping schedule roughly where it is (maybe a tweak here and there). I was going to FWH the 90 minute additions but that would mean either shortening the boil or boiling hops for 2 hours which supposedly breaks down pleasant compounds into unpleasant ones (according to the classic styles book on Barley wines anyway)

 

[donburke]

quite timely this popping up this morning,

last night me and 2 mates brewed an english barleywine

we started at 5pm and finished at 11pm with everything washed and packed up

my brewery performed differently with a brew this big,

firstly, the grain retained less water so we had a slightly larger boil volume 65 litres vs expected 62 litres (i put this down to the larger volume of grain compressing the grains beneath it effectively squeezing more liquor from the grains)

secondly, the boil off was more than i normally get, i assume that the boil off was the same in litres but as i had less boil volume to start with the percentage is greater)

these 2 difference actually worked well to compensate for each other

i had estimated an efficiency of 65% and ended up with 67%

pre boil gravity of 65 litres was 1.082 and we didnt measure post boil, but we boiled it down to 50 litres so we should have 1.105

looked like cottees caramel topping, it was that thick

we have 3 cubes of 15 litres that we will all ferment with different yeasts and share in coming months

mine will be pitched onto the whole yeast cake of a 1.064 beer that was fermented with 1882 thames valley ale ii

recipe is as follows,and i am looking forward to the final result

Style: English Barleywine
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 50.00 L
Boil Size: 61.27 L
Estimated OG: 1.105 SG
Estimated Color: 28.4 EBC
Estimated IBU: 42.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 67.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
15.00 kg Pale Malt, Golden Promise (5.9 EBC) Grain 60.36 %
9.00 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.Grain 36.22 %
0.50 kg Crystal Medium (Thomas Fawcett) (150.0 EBCGrain 2.01 %
0.35 kg Special B Malt (300.0 EBC) Grain 1.41 %
50.00 gm Fuggles [3.80 %] (90 min) (First Wort HopHops 7.5 IBU
50.00 gm Styrian Goldings [3.50 %] (90 min) (FirstHops 6.9 IBU
50.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.10 %] (90 min) (FiHops 10.0 IBU
100.00 gm Williamette [4.60 %] (90 min) (First WortHops 18.1 IBU
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
20.00 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 24.85 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
75 min Mash In Add 70.00 L of water at 73.9 C 67.5 C
10 min Mash Out Heat to 78.0 C over 10 min 78.0 C


Notes:
------
FILL 3 X 15 LITRE CUBES

 

[raven19]

Type: All grain
Size: 15 liters
Color: 11 HCU (~8 SRM)
Bitterness: 80 IBU
OG: 1.122
FG: 1.030
Alcohol: 11.9% v/v (9.3% w/w)
Grain: 8kg Simpsons MO
Mash: 60% efficiency
Boil: 120 minutes SG 1.073 25 liters
0.8kg Invert sugar (200g to boil, 200g increments post ferment)
...

You may be pleasantly suprised in the yeast's ability to get this down to your desired FG without the incremental sugar additions. I had good success with about 700ml of thick 1469 fresh slurry and aerated wort, getting an 1100+ OG down to the 1020's recently in my big EBW (which is now in bottles stored away out of sight).

+1 on upping the bitterness (albiet maybe only anther 10BU's, especially if this is to be put away to age (I suspect yes based on 1100+ OG?)

 

[donburke]

quite timely this popping up this morning,

last night me and 2 mates brewed an english barleywine

we started at 5pm and finished at 11pm with everything washed and packed up

my brewery performed differently with a brew this big,

firstly, the grain retained less water so we had a slightly larger boil volume 65 litres vs expected 62 litres (i put this down to the larger volume of grain compressing the grains beneath it effectively squeezing more liquor from the grains)

secondly, the boil off was more than i normally get, i assume that the boil off was the same in litres but as i had less boil volume to start with the percentage is greater)

these 2 difference actually worked well to compensate for each other

i had estimated an efficiency of 65% and ended up with 67%

pre boil gravity of 65 litres was 1.082 and we didnt measure post boil, but we boiled it down to 50 litres so we should have 1.105

looked like cottees caramel topping, it was that thick

we have 3 cubes of 15 litres that we will all ferment with different yeasts and share in coming months

mine will be pitched onto the whole yeast cake of a 1.064 beer that was fermented with 1882 thames valley ale ii

recipe is as follows,and i am looking forward to the final result

Style: English Barleywine
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 50.00 L
Boil Size: 61.27 L
Estimated OG: 1.105 SG
Estimated Color: 28.4 EBC
Estimated IBU: 42.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 67.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
15.00 kg Pale Malt, Golden Promise (5.9 EBC) Grain 60.36 %
9.00 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.Grain 36.22 %
0.50 kg Crystal Medium (Thomas Fawcett) (150.0 EBCGrain 2.01 %
0.35 kg Special B Malt (300.0 EBC) Grain 1.41 %
50.00 gm Fuggles [3.80 %] (90 min) (First Wort HopHops 7.5 IBU
50.00 gm Styrian Goldings [3.50 %] (90 min) (FirstHops 6.9 IBU
50.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.10 %] (90 min) (FiHops 10.0 IBU
100.00 gm Williamette [4.60 %] (90 min) (First WortHops 18.1 IBU
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
20.00 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 24.85 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
75 min Mash In Add 70.00 L of water at 73.9 C 67.5 C
10 min Mash Out Heat to 78.0 C over 10 min 78.0 C


Notes:
------
FILL 3 X 15 LITRE CUBES

sorry, just on this, online yeast calculators tell me i need approx 280 billion cells to ferment 15 litres of 1.105

the same calculator estimates that i have approx 760 billion cells in my yeast cake from the previous brew

i keep reading that you need heaps of yeast for these kinds of beers, and so i have heaps of yeast

does anyone see any major issues with me pitching directly onto this yeast cake ? (the yeast cake is quite clean with minimal trub)

should i bother oxygenating the wort with this much yeast or just splashing into the fermenter from the cube ?

 

[manticle]

You may be pleasantly suprised in the yeast's ability to get this down to your desired FG without the incremental sugar additions. I had good success with about 700ml of thick 1469 fresh slurry and aerated wort, getting an 1100+ OG down to the 1020's recently in my big EBW (which is now in bottles stored away out of sight).

+1 on upping the bitterness (albiet maybe only anther 10BU's, especially if this is to be put away to age (I suspect yes based on 1100+ OG?)

9-12 months bulk aged in glass, then bottled and put away for another 9-10.

I'll have a look at the bitterness but if it really does get down further than 1030, that will change perception too. UK style parameters (not just BJCP but actual examples I've read about) tend to be 80 IBU or less although my OG is also pushing the outer edges. Only UK example I've tried has been fullers which is much less on all fronts. I've had a couple of HB and AU microbrewed examples as well but they tend to follow the US trends a bit closer.

I've also had to knock my efficiency back by 10% from usual due to the high amount of malt, but that is just a guess based on nothing currently. Maybe when I get the SG of the wort, I'll be able to tweak the hop additions accordingly to hit 80-85, possibly 90.

 

[black_labb]

I've been planning this one, Though I may cut back on the vienna

40% MO
25% Vienna
25% JW Trad Ale
10% Biscuit (probably home roasted)

OG:1100 roughly

60 IBU of Pacific gem at 60mins
40 IBU of Pacific gem at 20 mins

Probably ferment it on a ringwood yeast cake or maybe 1469. I'll do it as a partigyle and turn the sparge into a bitter that will be used for the yeast cake.

the pacific gem should work well though I'm tempted to use some challenger as well at the 20 mins.

 

[donburke]

sorry, just on this, online yeast calculators tell me i need approx 280 billion cells to ferment 15 litres of 1.105

the same calculator estimates that i have approx 760 billion cells in my yeast cake from the previous brew

i keep reading that you need heaps of yeast for these kinds of beers, and so i have heaps of yeast

does anyone see any major issues with me pitching directly onto this yeast cake ? (the yeast cake is quite clean with minimal trub)

should i bother oxygenating the wort with this much yeast or just splashing into the fermenter from the cube ?

ended up pitching onto the yeastcake last night and gave it 60 sec of o2, pitched at 14 deg and in the fridge at 14 deg

after reading an article on maltose falcons website about big beers, they suggest keeping it really cool in the first 24 hours as during the growth phase the yeast can put out bad esters because of all the massive amounts of food and o2

the also suggested a shot of o2 every 4 hours, but i value my sleep more than this beer

this morning i have a 3 inch krausen and its chugging away at a nice steady pace, i might leave it at this lower temp for a few days before raising a couple of degrees, although wy1882 has a recommended ferment temp as low as 15 degrees

measured og 1.107 ... lets see how low it goes

 

[raven19]

9-12 months bulk aged in glass, then bottled and put away for another 9-10.

I'll have a look at the bitterness but if it really does get down further than 1030, that will change perception too. UK style parameters (not just BJCP but actual examples I've read about) tend to be 80 IBU or less although my OG is also pushing the outer edges. Only UK example I've tried has been fullers which is much less on all fronts. I've had a couple of HB and AU microbrewed examples as well but they tend to follow the US trends a bit closer.

I've also had to knock my efficiency back by 10% from usual due to the high amount of malt, but that is just a guess based on nothing currently. Maybe when I get the SG of the wort, I'll be able to tweak the hop additions accordingly to hit 80-85, possibly 90.

Defo drop your planned efficiency with such a big OG. I tend to aim for 50-55 for these massive beers.

Partigyle to get an EIPA/EPA could be a goer too?

I tend to max out the MT then adjust the hopping IBU's in the EBW (first runnings plus sometimes part of the 2nd runnings) to suit.

Totally agree that if your FG drops more than expected (as it did in mine disappointingly!) you will want to leave IBU as is.

 

[manticle]

I'll be running off at least one gyle to use as a starter/build up yeast. I treat my starters gently so 'll get an ordinary bitter out of it.

 

[donburke]

I'll be running off at least one gyle to use as a starter/build up yeast. I treat my starters gently so 'll get an ordinary bitter out of it.

this article from maltose falcons recommends a starter wort of 1.060

http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/thinkin...ewing-big-beers

kind of makes sense to condition the yeast to work in a higher nutrient and subsequent alcoholic environment

 

[TheWiggman]

Decided to expand my horizons and did one of these today.

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.comRecipe: English BarleywineBrewer: TheWiggmanAsst Brewer: Style: English BarleywineTYPE: All GrainTaste: (30.0) Recipe Specifications--------------------------Boil Size: 16.36 lPost Boil Volume: 13.52 lBatch Size (fermenter): 11.50 l   Bottling Volume: 10.75 lEstimated OG: 1.091 SGEstimated Color: 25.1 EBCEstimated IBU: 44.2 IBUsBrewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %Est Mash Efficiency: 91.2 %Boil Time: 90 MinutesIngredients:------------Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         3.60 kg               Pale (Traditional Ale) Malt - JW (6.9 EB Grain         1        80.5 %        0.17 kg               Crystal, Dark - Barret Burston (250.0 EB Grain         3        3.8 %         0.45 kg               Carapils - Weyermann (4.5 EBC)           Grain         2        10.1 %        39.00 g               Northdown [7.10 %] - Boil 60.0 min       Hop           4        44.2 IBUs     7.00 g                Goldings, East Kent [5.70 %] - Boil 0.0  Hop           6        0.0 IBUs      7.00 g                Target [11.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min          Hop           7        0.0 IBUs      1.0 pkg               English Ale (White Labs #WLP002) [35.49  Yeast         8        -             0.25 kg               Honey [Boil for10 min](2.0 EBC)          Sugar         5        5.6 %         Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 1 Step, Medium BodyTotal Grain Weight: 4.47 kg----------------------------Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time     Saccharification  Add 13.97 l of water at 71.0 C          66.0 C        60 min        Mash Out          Add -0.05 l of water and heat to 76.0 C 76.0 C        10 min        Sparge: Fly sparge with 9.66 l water at 76 CNotes:------OG: 1090FG: 1019ABV: 9.6%

Sparge was almost stuck (even though I have a HERMS) and took around 2h to do. Measured OG was 1.090, jagged it. I extended the boil to just under 2 hours and called it quits early because the whirlfloc and honey had been in there long enough. The system is not as efficient with bigger beers. Will know for next time.

Using Wyeast 1028 London Ale in a 1l stirred starter, a little warm at 22°C. Going to let it ferment out and put it in a few dedicated bottles, where it will reside for at least 12 months (but I've have one to crack open at the midway point). If it's any good might even consider it for a competition.

Ed: checked using hydrometer, updated.