Stone Brewing Water Analysis.... Help!

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Hi all! I've tried finding Escondido City water analysis online, but just can't find it. Everytime I go to the city council website, Bigpond says the site is unavailable... I'b be really grateful if anyone out there can access the analysis sheets....

Cheers!
 
i think california has water similar to ours - soft, not like mid-west water which is hard.

that said i think you could brew with seawater for all the difference it would make with a 270IBU beer....
 
well whaddeyaknow I'm wrong. they say here their water is 100ppm hardnesshttp://www.stonebrew.com/epic/Wca61656df3afa.htm
 
Hi all! I've tried finding Escondido City water analysis online, but just can't find it. Everytime I go to the city council website, Bigpond says the site is unavailable... I'b be really grateful if anyone out there can access the analysis sheets....

Cheers!

Here's a copy of their 2008 water report.View attachment 2008.pdf enjoy. :beer:
 
These days any decent sized brewery is going to be cleaning up any incoming water and then adding whatever they need on a brew by brew basis.

A water analysis doesn't really tell you jack you need to work out what's optimum for the beer you want to make and then build the water you need, by either removing or adding salts.

MHB
 
These days any decent sized brewery is going to be cleaning up any incoming water and then adding whatever they need on a brew by brew basis.

A water analysis doesn't really tell you jack you need to work out what's optimum for the beer you want to make and then build the water you need, by either removing or adding salts.

MHB

I agree
 
Well, sort of agree... Knowing what's in the water of a certain city allows you to match your water with a water from a different city. Certainly most, if not all breweries will play around with their water... Knowing how they have played around with their water is paramount...Once you have that, you've got a good base to build on. That's why I wanted Escondido....

These days any decent sized brewery is going to be cleaning up any incoming water and then adding whatever they need on a brew by brew basis.

A water analysis doesn't really tell you jack you need to work out what's optimum for the beer you want to make and then build the water you need, by either removing or adding salts.

MHB
 
I'm with MHB,

Chances are pretty fair that they employ reverse osmosis or some other water treatment step-before they then add back whatever additions needed for the specific beer. I don't think Escondido water would really give you much insight at all as to what is actually used because they wont be using it straight up. The main reasons decent sized breweries treat their water as a matter of course is to avoid seasonal changes and give total control in water profile and often they will just clean the water up with RO and start with a fresh slate.

Without looking at the report I have no idea if the water analysis yields any undesirable qualities but if it does you can be damn sure they will be treating their water with reverse osmosis and regardless chances are they will be adding further salt additions anyway so it doesn't really give you much information at all really.

The best bet would be to just address the water you have access to and formulate it to meet the style you want to brew, chances are Stone will be using a similar approach anyway.

Well, sort of agree... Knowing what's in the water of a certain city allows you to match your water with a water from a different city. Certainly most, if not all breweries will play around with their water... Knowing how they have played around with their water is paramount...Once you have that, you've got a good base to build on. That's why I wanted Escondido....
 
100 years ago you would be right historically yes the water had a big influence on what was brewed where and we can/have learned a lot about what water chemistry does to beer.

These days water is an ingredient like hops and malt and its specifications are as tightly controlled as they are for any other ingredient.

Any brewer will build their water with as much care and attention as they give to their other ingredients to achieve exactly the beer they want.

Give you an example, Adelaide is notorious for having some of the worst water in the country (no not their fault their just downstream of everybody), no big surprise that the biggest Ro-Mo water treatment plant in the southern hemisphere is located at Coopers Brewery.

Workout what you want then build your water to speck.

MHB
Edit

Snap I just type slower than Justin.
 
Sorry MHB, I stole your thunder, but we were heading down the same path anyway. :party:
 
But if shadow had some escondido water, he has a starting point to then adjust to what he wants.
But if shadow wants to replicate escondido water report with his water, heres hoping huh.

A further example please or what brewery does list a water report amongst the ingredients?
 
Well, neonmeate linked to their Vertical Epic recipe in his post near the top. That says about their water under the mashing section. That amount of hardness is important. They don't give you the sulphate:chloride ratio but as neonmeate says, I doubt that's vital with this beer. I'd just use gypsum to get you to that hardness level and call it good. :icon_cheers:
 
Haysie,

Not trying to pick a fight but you may not be fully understanding what I'm trying to say. By using reverse osmosis it basically doesn't matter what water you start with as the process essentially removes the salt component from the water getting you kind of close to distilled water essentially. So whatever character/profile of water you start with the outcome should be basically the same whether your water is from Pilsen or Burton-remove the ions and you are left with pure water (which is unsuitable for brewing). To use it for brewing you then have to add back various ions to get the necessary chemical make up that you want for the beer. This starts to sound silly doesn't it.

But, if the water you have at hand is not perfect for brewing the style you want you will want to make changes to it. As long as it contains nothing you don't want (eg. too much CO3 2-, too much Ca2+) then you can just add salts (well, ions actually but you add them as salts) to make the water up to the profile you desire. The problem comes when your water already contains too much of some ions, if this is the case you have to remove them. The way to do this is most often done with reverse osmosis. But water treatments is expensive, so often you use some of your local water (it will need to be treated via activated carbon at least to remove chlorine or chloramine) and then mix it with reverse osmosis water so you don't have to treat the full amount. I hope you follow.

So essentially, it doesn't matter what water profile you are starting with because most breweries are going to change it anyway. Basically what I'm getting at is mimicking Escondido water is not mimicking Stone's water. I know for a fact that they have a reverse osmosis set up (I've been on the Stone tour) and that they use a blend of RO water and mix it with charcoal treated local water (so in fact at least in some parameters Stones water will contain less of some specific ions than the Escondido water supply would lead you to believe because they have diluted it). They will then add back various salts to lift the ions they want.

I'm not trying to be a PITA just trying to say that it's not as simple as just copying the local water supply because what they actually use in the brewery has essentially nothing to do with the local water supply. Again, you are better off choosing a water profile that is recommended for VERY hoppy IPA's and forgetting all about the Escondido water profile.

Good luck with it Shadow.

Justin

FWIW, I dont know the water profile for Stone's beers but I bet a google search will get you plenty of info from other home brewers who have gone after cloning Stones beers. I haven't got anything immediately at hand but here is a good start from Palmers HTB: http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html

I suspect there will be a reasonably high sulfate conc, probably in the upper levels of the range as that is typical of highly bittered beers. As the Stonebrew website suggest around 100ppm Ca2+ hardness would be a good place to start.
 
+ many

That's what I wanted to say only faster and better phrased.

MHB
 
So could you analyse the beer after fermentation for the ions of interest (can this be done with ICP-OES or ICP-MS?) and work your way back from there?

cheers
clatty
 
Man... talk about a can of worms!!!!!!!! Sheesh...
As I said, I have the information about the treatment of Stone's water for one of their beers. It involves diluting Escondido Town water with RO water. Now, if I didn't have the approximate water analysis of Escondido, how would I get to what Stone has?
Man.... seriously....
 
Just in case people don't understand......(& yes, this is called being a smartarse!) :p

If Bob knows a number, but will only tell you that the number has been divided in two, how do I get this number? Hmmm.....
I COULD do an analysis of the final beer.... but if I know that this beer originated from a towns water supply (divided by 2), then maybe, just maybe, that towns water supply analysis would be beneficial to me. So, the best way to work out what the original number may be, is to USE the DATA at hand, and divide it by two to work out the water supply used for the beer I want to make.
So, I guess my point is, MHB & Justin, knowing a towns water supply can be very useful, and when you have the tools and knowledge, very worthwhile having.

Cheers.
 

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