Step Mashing For Wheat Beers

[T.D.]

Hey at least he left the "H" for humble out... That would be too much to fathom. :excl:

Warren -

I always thought the "H" stood for "Holy"...?

 

[muckanic]

:lol: Warren - you live in hope!!!!

IME, after performing numerous weizen and wit step mashes, it is difficult at classic protein rest temperatures to activate protease without simultaneously activating peptidase. IME, the widespread notion that a 5C temperature difference will prevent this happening ignores various practicalities. OTOH, if the grist is chockas with protein in the first place, then it it is still worth trying to prevent a set mash. IME, enzymes can work a heck of a lot faster than is commonly thought, and that includes during the transition between rest temperatures. IME, with a double batch and 2400W of indirect power input, the mash could spend at least 30 mins in protein digestion territory.

Now for the IMO bit. Humble apologies. The alleged beta amylase rest at 62C could also function as a protease rest, depending upon factors like pH and how long it is conducted. This could in theory improve body. Similarly, the alleged alpha amylase rest at 72C could also contribute towards starch gelatinisation, depending on factors like the grist composition, the strains of those grains, the growing season, the malting, and the mix of small and large starch granules.

IMO, the fact that Zwickel's weizen mash schedule looks much the same as his pilsener mash schedule gives me pause for thought. That's not a criticism BTW. Apart from anything else, I have no idea how fast he is ramping his temperatures, how he is sparging, what particular malts he is using, etc, etc.

 

[Zwickel]

IMO, the fact that Zwickel's weizen mash schedule looks much the same as his pilsener mash schedule gives me pause for thought. That's not a criticism BTW. Apart from anything else, I have no idea how fast he is ramping his temperatures, how he is sparging, what particular malts he is using, etc, etc.

sorry mate, you cant see the difference to my Pilsener mash regime?

hmmm... I wouldnt do a ferulic acid rest with my Pilseners, never, but I do a protein rest with all of my Pilseners;
With Weizen I do not protein rest.

With the amylase rests you may play a little bit around, just vary the time, but you need it for both beer styles.


Cheers :icon_chickcheers:


edit: I forgot, the temp rise time is 1C/min.

 

[muckanic]

I wouldnt do a ferulic acid rest with my Pilseners, never, but I do a protein rest with all of my Pilseners;
With Weizen I do not protein rest.

Apologies for posting from memory. For some reason, I thought you were pre-hydrating your pilseners. So is your pilsener malt under-modified?

 

[tdh]

Ohah Zwickel. Die schaukelden Titten machen mich nervs!

tdh

 

[Zwickel]

.... So is your pilsener malt under-modified?

no, it isnt undermodified, although I dont exactly know the Kolbach-number, should be around 40, I guess.
Our Pilsener malts around here have a Kolbach index of 38 to 41, that means pretty well modified.

Ohah Zwickel. Die schaukelden Titten machen mich nervs!

tdh

Hi Thomas, Titten und Bier haben einen besonderen Reiz :wub:

just press the "Escape" key, then it stops moving

 

[blackbock]

I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread (from the sidelines..) and since it has become a faux pas to have an opinion, I'll just stay mum and wish ToG all the best with his Weizen!

 

[Zwickel]

@muckanic, I did a research about our Kolbach index for the actual Pilsener malts around here.
I have to correct the numbers:

In 2008, our winter barley has got a range from 39.4 to 50.8%
whereas the summer barley has a range from 41.5 to 51.9, in the middle 45.2%

So I think, that clarifies everything

Cheers :icon_cheers:

 

[Steve]

Tony is well experienced at decoctions, remember PM'ing him a few years ago when trying to get a handle on the process.

Screwy, any chance of passing on what you learnt. I think I know what you guys are talking about but not really.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Tony]

Thanks for the advice on decoctions, Tony. I hadn't heard of having a mini-step in the decoction before, but that sounds sensible. Have you used Aussie wheat before in wheat beer recipes?

:icon_cheers:
ToG

Aussie wheat is fine. It wont have as rich a character as wayermann wheat but use it if youve got it!

Tony is well experienced at decoctions, remember PM'ing him a few years ago when trying to get a handle on the process. My hint is to use a seive to pull thick decoctions for the early steps. I believe Tony will agree that the step to Sacc temp and Mash Out should be thin pulls (wort only) with the aim of only raising the temp. It is very easy to end up with low attenuation when decocting as he says, so keep temps low. Very important to saccharification rest the pull prior to boiling. Boiling the thick pull provides maltiness, have read that some brewers boil for an hour for some styles, although I don't understand what effect this long rest would have while waiting for the boil. A short 15 min boil is fine for wheat beers. Using Munich in the grist is used to provide a little maltiness where decocting is not used.

Screwy

Read below

I always thought the "H" stood for "Holy"...?

me too!

Screwy, any chance of passing on what you learnt. I think I know what you guys are talking about but not really.
Cheers
Steve

I have been thinking of doing an article with full pictures on how i do a decoction mash. Its really quite simple but as i mentioned, there are a few traps like mash temp ect that can be easily avoided if you know about them.

Here is what i usually do.

I mash in at either the feral... ul... ic... whatever temp or protein rest and when mixed in, imediatly pull a thick decoction to a volume predetermined by promash needed to raise my mash temp to the next step temp once boiling. When i say thick decoction i mean mainly grain with just enough liquid to make it fluid enough to stir. the grain should not have enough liquid in there to be able to move freely. Think porridge!

This is raised gently and stiring non stop to avoil burning, to mash temp..... i usually use about 63 deg, and rest for 15 min here. Heat again while stiring till it boiling and simmer gently for 15 min with the lid on so you dont burn it! Keep an eye on it and make sure it doesnt burn, especially if you have a thin based pot.

I unceremonially "dump" this back in the mash and mix in quick. You should now have it at your mash temp (i use lower temps due to the high order sugars produced by raising the decoction through the high temp mash range while bringing it to the boil.... twice) I mash around 62 to 63 for wheats and 64 to 65 for heavier german lagers like oktoberfest and bock.

Rest at this mash temp for 30 min to convert, then pull a second thick decoction. Raise this strait, but gently to boiling, as its already converted now, stiring the whoile time so it doesnt burn. boil it with the lid on so it doesnt dry out.

By now you will be wondering if you prefer the smell of boiling malt or boiling hops. It smells better than boiling wort. Its a wonderful smell!

I boil the second one for 20 min which will give you about an hour of full conversion in the mash tun. I pour the decoction back in for a Beta rest at around 71. I usually just let it sit for 10 min and mash out at this stage but you can pull a thin decoction at this stage if you want to mash ouot at higher temps. Just bring the this (wort only) decoction to the boil and pour strait back in to raise the temp.

Mash out, sparge, yadda yaddy....................

The reason we pull a thick mash early in the process has 2 functions.

1. Boiling the grain adds a wonderful maltiness to the beer and breaks down the grain to increase conversion in the mash.
2. When we mix in the mash in the first place, most of the enzymes are washed into the liquid in the mash. If we just boil liquid, we kill more enzymes. By boiling more grain and less liquid, we leave more enzymes in the mash to make our yummy sugary wort!

I also usually increase my efficiency by 5% when doing a deciction. I van get over 90% these days doing this!

Also.......... as i said before, the act of boiling the mash will produce break that ends up back in the mash tum. after a couple rounds of this, all the break can stick the mash as all the grain and husk has been soffened up and broken down by boiling. I find a few % Rice gulls is worth adding, or at least having on hand to mix in if needed.

All in all, its a fairly simple thing to do, and can give great results.

cheers

 

[Screwtop]

Screwy, any chance of passing on what you learnt. I think I know what you guys are talking about but not really.
Cheers
Steve

Here you have it - ALL

Right from the horses mouth

Screwy

Aussie wheat is fine. It wont have as rich a character as wayermann wheat but use it if youve got it!




Read below




me too!




I have been thinking of doing an article with full pictures on how i do a decoction mash. Its really quite simple but as i mentioned, there are a few traps like mash temp ect that can be easily avoided if you know about them.

Here is what i usually do.

I mash in at either the feral... ul... ic... whatever temp or protein rest and when mixed in, imediatly pull a thick decoction to a volume predetermined by promash needed to raise my mash temp to the next step temp once boiling. When i say thick decoction i mean mainly grain with just enough liquid to make it fluid enough to stir. the grain should not have enough liquid in there to be able to move freely. Think porridge!

This is raised gently and stiring non stop to avoil burning, to mash temp..... i usually use about 63 deg, and rest for 15 min here. Heat again while stiring till it boiling and simmer gently for 15 min with the lid on so you dont burn it! Keep an eye on it and make sure it doesnt burn, especially if you have a thin based pot.

I unceremonially "dump" this back in the mash and mix in quick. You should now have it at your mash temp (i use lower temps due to the high order sugars produced by raising the decoction through the high temp mash range while bringing it to the boil.... twice) I mash around 62 to 63 for wheats and 64 to 65 for heavier german lagers like oktoberfest and bock.

Rest at this mash temp for 30 min to convert, then pull a second thick decoction. Raise this strait, but gently to boiling, as its already converted now, stiring the whoile time so it doesnt burn. boil it with the lid on so it doesnt dry out.

By now you will be wondering if you prefer the smell of boiling malt or boiling hops. It smells better than boiling wort. Its a wonderful smell!

I boil the second one for 20 min which will give you about an hour of full conversion in the mash tun. I pour the decoction back in for a Beta rest at around 71. I usually just let it sit for 10 min and mash out at this stage but you can pull a thin decoction at this stage if you want to mash ouot at higher temps. Just bring the this (wort only) decoction to the boil and pour strait back in to raise the temp.

Mash out, sparge, yadda yaddy....................

The reason we pull a thick mash early in the process has 2 functions.

1. Boiling the grain adds a wonderful maltiness to the beer and breaks down the grain to increase conversion in the mash.
2. When we mix in the mash in the first place, most of the enzymes are washed into the liquid in the mash. If we just boil liquid, we kill more enzymes. By boiling more grain and less liquid, we leave more enzymes in the mash to make our yummy sugary wort!

I also usually increase my efficiency by 5% when doing a deciction. I van get over 90% these days doing this!

Also.......... as i said before, the act of boiling the mash will produce break that ends up back in the mash tum. after a couple rounds of this, all the break can stick the mash as all the grain and husk has been soffened up and broken down by boiling. I find a few % Rice gulls is worth adding, or at least having on hand to mix in if needed.

All in all, its a fairly simple thing to do, and can give great results.

cheers

 

[Tony]

I have actually toyed with the idea of adding a 1" ball valve outlet to my mash tun just above the FB to simply open and run thick mash into a pot.

Would be easier than trying to scoop the thick mash out of the bottom with a dodgy little bucket tapped to a stick!

 

[NeilArge]

I have actually toyed with the idea of adding a 1" ball valve outlet to my mash tun just above the FB to simply open and run thick mash into a pot.

Would be easier than trying to scoop the thick mash out of the bottom with a dodgy little bucket tapped to a stick!

Tony

A bloody brilliant series of posts from you! Straightforward, sensible but scientifically informed (the science and art of brewing I'm talking of here). Another classic example of the beauty of this forum. Oh yeah...IM(H)O h34r: .

Thanks mate!

:icon_cheers:

ToG

 

[hefevice]

Hey Bum!

Acetaldehyde is usually present in a beer that has been removed from the cake too soon/crash chilled too early or other issues relating to yeast handling and fermentation control. E.g. too varied ferment temp (ie. Temps dropped too low and yeast flooced out.) and over pitcing may also be the cause (but unlikely). Id probably say in your case it was caused by either removing from the cake too soon OR temperature control. I'd also agree poitching around a smack pack.. or a small starter (500ml) would be good for the weisen yeast. a little stress will add some more fruitness and get the esters and phenols pushing their upper limits.

Is it worth while trying to revive 3068 from a slant or is it just asking for trouble? Anyone had any success?

In my case I had temperature control, and left the yeast on the cake for longer than I have in subsequent batches. Since cutting down to 1 packet I have not experienced the problem.

 

[warrenlw63]

Tony what's your starting L/G ratio of the mash? Do you mash in a little thinner to compensate for the liquid lost in the decotion boil? Dependant on the boil time of the decotion there'd certainly be some evaporation in the mash boiling.

With my limited experience with decotion mashing I aways added a little extra liquor to the decoction with the view it would be reduced during the boiling of the portion. I found if you boiled it too thick that it was almost impossible to avoid scorching.

Warren -

 

[Tony]

Thanks mate!

:icon_cheers:

ToG

Not a problem. Im happy to share M(Holy)O's

Warren.

I mash in at 2.5L/kg as aposed to my usual 3L/kg to make it a bit easier to get a thick decoction.

Yeah....... its easy to scorch but once boiling it takes bugger all heat to keep it there and this is where you need just enough liquid in there to keep it happy and slightly fluid. My Porridge comment earlier was probably a bit harsh. Perhaps musli with just enough liquid to cover it but not let it float.

I find i have to be really really gentle with the bring to boil stage. I drop the heat back the bugger all as it comes to the boil and put the lid on and let it simmer with the lid on. This way there is no real liquid loss, and i give it a stir every couple minuites.

Im getting all excited. I think the 3068 is going to be next in the starter flask.

cheers

 

[WitWonder]

Not that I am trying to discount the experience of those who use decoction mashing techniques, but I thought I would pass on some newly acquired (for me anyway) information. A few of us WC brewers are taking the BJCP course and were lucky enough to have a guest speaker (Roger Bussell) talking about malt during this week's session. I asked about decoction mashing and Roger indicated (and I'm paraphrasing) that it is most likely not necessary with the malts of today. The method originated due to the poor, inconsistent malts available (small quantities from lots of different farms) at the time and using a decoction provided a method for the brewer to have a fairly uniform result at the end (not to mention the ability to hit temperatures required consistantly). I also seem to recall Jamil saying he never uses a decoction for any style.

Having said that, if it works for your beer then go for it. I brewed a weizen recently using a decoction and my brewing partner reckons it's the best beer we've made...

 

[muckanic]

I asked about decoction mashing and Roger indicated (and I'm paraphrasing) that it is most likely not necessary with the malts of today.

But was he referring to barley malt or all malts? As I have opined previously, sorry , I dunno know whether it makes a lot of sense to talk about well-modified wheat or rye malt. And he also presumably wasn't referring to unmalted adjunct brewing either. A further consideration is is he anti-decoctions or anti-step mashing? There is a difference. Decoctions probably are however the simplest way for someone with a non-heatable mash tun to step mash without significant dilution, unless you want to mess around with steam.

 

[Tony]

I will agree that today modern well converted malts dont "need" to be decoction mashed.

But by christ it makes them taste good, and thats whats in it for me. THe malt character you get from boiling the mash! Nothing more.

As for poorly converted wheat and rye.......... no problems here. 80+% efficiencies with 70% wheat's with a single infusion mash.

cheers

 

[pdilley]

Great information guys, as usual!

I'm going to start brewing a hefeweizen using the information here for mash schedule in the next 30 minutes but modified slightly for BIAB technique and I cultured some Schfferhofer yeast in some left over wort from my previous batch. It has come up beautifully as you can see.



Has anyone given this yeast a go? I have some WLP300 in the fridge but was curious about this yeast to try it unless anyone knows a good reason not to?

EDIT: Forgot to add I will be using the "Add up to 30C" fermentation temperature schedule for hefeweizen this time. I am not sure how much phenols this yeast will push so I will hope for balance with 12 pitch and an 18 ferment.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete