Step Mashing For Wheat Beers

[muckanic]

But yeah, if you have the time and are keen to do it properly to add good body to your beer, then I gather Zwickel & Weyermann's method are the way to go.

I don't think you can blame thin beer on lack of a step mash. A stuck sparge maybe. Also note that Weyermann protein rest and Zwickel doesn't. OTOH, there is a reasonable possibility that protease is still active at beta amylase rests at sub-gelatinisation temperatures, which both advocate. There is also a possibility that, by starting with a ferulic acid rest, the mash spends some non-trivial time in the protein digestion zone as the temperature is slowly increased. As I mentioned in another recent thread that was thrashing this particular horse, I think the widespread notion that 50C rests make thin beer whereas 55C rests do not is flawed. That is based on looking solely at theoretically optimum enzyme temperatures and ignoring other practicalities, like their range and speed of operation.

Incidentally, I have had a number of very clovey weizen and wit beers that I know received no ferulic acid rest.

 

[HoppingMad]

I don't think you can blame thin beer on lack of a step mash. A stuck sparge maybe. Also note that Weyermann protein rest and Zwickel doesn't.

Interesting points Muck, haven't actually used either Weyermann's or Zwickels procedure yet so haven't consulted them in huge detail, but do plan to give them both a go. Can't really comment on whether a 50 degree or 55 would be better as a starting point either as am not that far progressed in my brewing experience.

My thin beer had rice hulls added so there was no risk of a stuck sparge and flowed pretty smoothly. My recipe was 50% pils and 50% wheat malt. Considering adding a small amount of munich next time as well (substituting some of the pils part) to boost a little body and add further insurance which I think might help.

Hopper.

 

[NeilArge]

+1 on the mash regime. I accidentally ended up doing approximately this (was aiming for a 66C rest but missed on the low side), and it turned out great. The 43C rest will also help with sparging by breaking down some of the glucans in the wheat (beta-glucanaise).

Given the high modification of malts now days, the decoctions only need to be boiled for a short amount of time (5 to 10 mins), and I normally give the decoctions a sacc rest at around 66C for 5 - 10 mins on the way up to boiling.

With regard to the fermentation temperature using 3068, I would recommend 16C until the krausen subsides, then slowly ramp up to 18-20C to clean up. Even at 16C the damned thing still climbs out of the fermenter. Be careful not to over-pitch or over-oxygenate. I have done this before an ended up with Acetyl-aldehyde problems. I find 1 pack of 3068 is fine for ~20L @ ~1.052. The lower temperature ferment restrains the esters (banana), and results in an excellent balance.

That's very interesting advice err, hefevice . Fermentation temps do seem to be pretty important - nearly as important as the mash regime even. I had been looking somewhere for advice on a beta-glucan rest, and you mentioned it!
When you say one smackpak should be okay, do you mean just by itself or cultured up into a decent size starter? I have read somewhere else the beer tastes better, with more phenols, if the yeast is stressed (i.e. under-pitched). What's been your experience?
In search of hefeweizen heaven,
ToG

 

[Screwtop]

Great thread leading into summer chaps (particular thanks to Zwickel) ... Let's just hope it stays on track and free of the "IMO" brigade.

I'll be bookmarking this one.

Warren -

I don't think you can blame thin beer on lack of a step mash. A stuck sparge maybe. Also note that Weyermann protein rest and Zwickel doesn't. OTOH, there is a reasonable possibility that protease is still active at beta amylase rests at sub-gelatinisation temperatures, which both advocate. There is also a possibility that, by starting with a ferulic acid rest, the mash spends some non-trivial time in the protein digestion zone as the temperature is slowly increased. As I mentioned in another recent thread that was thrashing this particular horse, I think the widespread notion that 50C rests make thin beer whereas 55C rests do not is flawed. That is based on looking solely at theoretically optimum enzyme temperatures and ignoring other practicalities, like their range and speed of operation.

Incidentally, I have had a number of very clovey weizen and wit beers that I know received no ferulic acid rest.

:lol: Warren - you live in hope!!!!

 

[Tony]

Im all for step mashes with wheat beers. They are worth the effort.

And if you do it with decoctions, it will be even better.

A few tips from me on decoctions.

Make sure that when you pull your first one from the 40 od deg ferulic????? acid rest, you raise it to mash temp (63 deg)and hold it there for 15 min to convert before raising to boiling temp. Otherwise your just boiling unconverted starch..... which is bad!

Also another thing i have found....... The act of raising the pulled decoction up through the temp range will expose it to higher mash temps and produce less fermentable sugars. If you mash high around the 67 mark, you usually end up with very poor attenuation because of the double hit of high temps.

What i usually do is work out what mash temp i would use in an infusion mash to achieve the desired result, and subtract 3 deg from it for the decoction mash temp. This gives me the attenuation i want and the rich maltiness from boiling the malt.

IMO...... h34r: :lol: 62 deg will be perfect mash temp with a decoction mash. It should be light and dry but with a rich maltiness... which is where the decoction shines!

Also..... watch out for a stuck sparge as boiling the mash produces break, like in the kettle, and this can stick the mash real good.

I learnt this the hard way with a 60% rye roggenbier!

keep us informed on the beers progress. I have a fresh bag of weyermann pale wheat and plan to give some 3068 a right flogging very soon.

cheers

 

[hefevice]

That's very interesting advice err, hefevice . Fermentation temps do seem to be pretty important - nearly as important as the mash regime even. I had been looking somewhere for advice on a beta-glucan rest, and you mentioned it!
When you say one smackpak should be okay, do you mean just by itself or cultured up into a decent size starter? I have read somewhere else the beer tastes better, with more phenols, if the yeast is stressed (i.e. under-pitched). What's been your experience?
In search of hefeweizen heaven,
ToG

Apologies for the bad pun in my nick . I first tasted hefeweizen by accident in (of all places) Freising near Munich - the home of Weihenstephan. It was my beer epiphany and I have been obsessed with the style ever since.

One smack pack, no starter. I used 2L starters on my first two batches (got to make a starter, right?) and had acetyl aldehyde problems as a result. On the other hand, I am not big on deliberately under-pitching to stress the yeast. One pack in 20L @ 1.050 is at the low end of the range, but I don't consider it under. Produces a very healthy fermentation (always need a blow off tube) and has no problems getting down to FG. Both esters and phenols are present, but in balance and restrained.

I have a hypothesis that 3068 works much better at the lower end of the ale range of pitching rates. I think over time this has come to be confused with "under pitching" and therefore stressing of the yeast.

 

[Tony]

I have often pitched a smacked, swolen pack of 3068 direct into 52 liters @ 1.050 and it works great!

I only do this if the pack was fresh and it swole in under 6 hrs, but i think that is another inportant consideration with this yeast.......... freshness.

Re-pitching seems to effect it as well, with flavours getting less prominent in the beer.

cheers

Ohhhhhhh one other piece of advice from an avid 3068 user:

BLOW OFF TUBE!

 

[drtomc]

IMO......

IMO stands for "I'm Megaswill Only" right? h34r:

T.

 

[Tony]

no........ its code for Im a **** stiring bastard

 

[NeilArge]

Im all for step mashes with wheat beers. They are worth the effort.

And if you do it with decoctions, it will be even better.

A few tips from me on decoctions.

Make sure that when you pull your first one from the 40 od deg ferulic????? acid rest, you raise it to mash temp (63 deg)and hold it there for 15 min to convert before raising to boiling temp. Otherwise your just boiling unconverted starch..... which is bad!

Also another thing i have found....... The act of raising the pulled decoction up through the temp range will expose it to higher mash temps and produce less fermentable sugars. If you mash high around the 67 mark, you usually end up with very poor attenuation because of the double hit of high temps.

What i usually do is work out what mash temp i would use in an infusion mash to achieve the desired result, and subtract 3 deg from it for the decoction mash temp. This gives me the attenuation i want and the rich maltiness from boiling the malt.

IMO...... h34r: :lol: 62 deg will be perfect mash temp with a decoction mash. It should be light and dry but with a rich maltiness... which is where the decoction shines!

Also..... watch out for a stuck sparge as boiling the mash produces break, like in the kettle, and this can stick the mash real good.

I learnt this the hard way with a 60% rye roggenbier!

keep us informed on the beers progress. I have a fresh bag of weyermann pale wheat and plan to give some 3068 a right flogging very soon.

cheers

Thanks for the advice on decoctions, Tony. I hadn't heard of having a mini-step in the decoction before, but that sounds sensible. Have you used Aussie wheat before in wheat beer recipes?

:icon_cheers:
ToG

 

[NeilArge]

Apologies for the bad pun in my nick . I first tasted hefeweizen by accident in (of all places) Freising near Munich - the home of Weihenstephan. It was my beer epiphany and I have been obsessed with the style ever since.

One smack pack, no starter. I used 2L starters on my first two batches (got to make a starter, right?) and had acetyl aldehyde problems as a result. On the other hand, I am not big on deliberately under-pitching to stress the yeast. One pack in 20L @ 1.050 is at the low end of the range, but I don't consider it under. Produces a very healthy fermentation (always need a blow off tube) and has no problems getting down to FG. Both esters and phenols are present, but in balance and restrained.

I have a hypothesis that 3068 works much better at the lower end of the ale range of pitching rates. I think over time this has come to be confused with "under pitching" and therefore stressing of the yeast.

Thanks for the clarification on the yeast hefevice - 1 pack it is!

Cheers

ToG

 

[warrenlw63]

IMO...... h34r: :lol:

Bah! Only takes one bad apple to create acetaldehyde. B)

Warren -

 

[Screwtop]

Im all for step mashes with wheat beers. They are worth the effort.

And if you do it with decoctions, it will be even better.

A few tips from me on decoctions.

Make sure that when you pull your first one from the 40 od deg ferulic????? acid rest, you raise it to mash temp (63 deg)and hold it there for 15 min to convert before raising to boiling temp. Otherwise your just boiling unconverted starch..... which is bad!

Also another thing i have found....... The act of raising the pulled decoction up through the temp range will expose it to higher mash temps and produce less fermentable sugars. If you mash high around the 67 mark, you usually end up with very poor attenuation because of the double hit of high temps.

What i usually do is work out what mash temp i would use in an infusion mash to achieve the desired result, and subtract 3 deg from it for the decoction mash temp. This gives me the attenuation i want and the rich maltiness from boiling the malt.

IMO...... h34r: :lol: 62 deg will be perfect mash temp with a decoction mash. It should be light and dry but with a rich maltiness... which is where the decoction shines!

Also..... watch out for a stuck sparge as boiling the mash produces break, like in the kettle, and this can stick the mash real good.

I learnt this the hard way with a 60% rye roggenbier!

keep us informed on the beers progress. I have a fresh bag of weyermann pale wheat and plan to give some 3068 a right flogging very soon.

cheers

Tony is well experienced at decoctions, remember PM'ing him a few years ago when trying to get a handle on the process. My hint is to use a seive to pull thick decoctions for the early steps. I believe Tony will agree that the step to Sacc temp and Mash Out should be thin pulls (wort only) with the aim of only raising the temp. It is very easy to end up with low attenuation when decocting as he says, so keep temps low. Very important to saccharification rest the pull prior to boiling. Boiling the thick pull provides maltiness, have read that some brewers boil for an hour for some styles, although I don't understand what effect this long rest would have while waiting for the boil. A short 15 min boil is fine for wheat beers. Using Munich in the grist is used to provide a little maltiness where decocting is not used.

Screwy

 

[Fourstar]

One smack pack, no starter. I used 2L starters on my first two batches (got to make a starter, right?) and had acetyl aldehyde problems as a result. On the other hand, I am not big on deliberately under-pitching to stress the yeast.

I have a hypothesis that 3068 works much better at the lower end of the ale range of pitching rates. I think over time this has come to be confused with "under pitching" and therefore stressing of the yeast.

Hey Bum!

Acetaldehyde is usually present in a beer that has been removed from the cake too soon/crash chilled too early or other issues relating to yeast handling and fermentation control. E.g. too varied ferment temp (ie. Temps dropped too low and yeast flooced out.) and over pitcing may also be the cause (but unlikely). Id probably say in your case it was caused by either removing from the cake too soon OR temperature control. I'd also agree poitching around a smack pack.. or a small starter (500ml) would be good for the weisen yeast. a little stress will add some more fruitness and get the esters and phenols pushing their upper limits.

Is it worth while trying to revive 3068 from a slant or is it just asking for trouble? Anyone had any success?

 

[T.D.]

Hey Fourstar, you left out the IMO!

 

[Fourstar]

Hey Fourstar, you left out the IMO!

IMO, i reserve the right to leave out the IMO. :lol:

 

[T.D.]

IMO you have made the right choice!

 

[raven19]

Is it worth while trying to revive 3068 from a slant or is it just asking for trouble? Anyone had any success?

Yes, I have just recently made a 3068 starter for a Dunkelweisen from a slant. Pitched a 1L starter last night. Starter tasted of banana's but not too overpowering.

Will report back in a week or so once in the keg... :icon_cheers:

 

[NeilArge]

Tony is well experienced at decoctions, remember PM'ing him a few years ago when trying to get a handle on the process. My hint is to use a seive to pull thick decoctions for the early steps. I believe Tony will agree that the step to Sacc temp and Mash Out should be thin pulls (wort only) with the aim of only raising the temp. It is very easy to end up with low attenuation when decocting as he says, so keep temps low. Very important to saccharification rest the pull prior to boiling. Boiling the thick pull provides maltiness, have read that some brewers boil for an hour for some styles, although I don't understand what effect this long rest would have while waiting for the boil. A short 15 min boil is fine for wheat beers. Using Munich in the grist is used to provide a little maltiness where decocting is not used.

Screwy

Sounds like this beer is going to place quite a strain on my system... ...IMO :lol:

ToG

 

[warrenlw63]

IMO you have made the right choice!

Hey at least he left the "H" for humble out... That would be too much to fathom. :excl:

Warren -