Speciality Grain - How Much?

[Fourstar]

Looks like I'm wrong. but........ I think that is sufficient if just jollying up a can.

Even still Dave 100g as a general rule still needs to be backup by something. I'd have to take buttersd70's stance on this. With my knowledge of AG brewing and using specialties/caramalts. Balancing malts/hops per style is a bit of an art when it comes to recipe design. Most when starting out dont KISS and end up with a grain bill showcasing 5-6 different types of grain and 4 different hops. All in hope it will be something special. In the end its just a muddled mess. There are beers out there that taste great with these grain/hop bills but most are muddled failures.

I find usually the % or gram weight of specialties can be anywhere between 50g and 700g for any standard 23L batch.

If i was doing tins of hopped goo if i didnt have the capability to-do ag anymore, all of these kit beers would be pale base kits, e.g draught kits, pilsner kits, pale ale kits or english bitter kits spruced up with my own steeping of specialties.

For instance. Most brewers on here were doing a stout, it would be with a stout tin and 50-100g of roast barley or none whatsoever.

if i were doing it, my Stout would be a English Bitter tin. i would also steeping 500g of roast barley (10% approx of gravity points) and DME to reach 1.050.

The reason id be doing this is you have more 'control' as to what malt flavours you are getting out of your tin, not just a run of the mill tin-o-stout. It is also possible for novice brewers to steep specialty grain, its like making a cup of tea really so i'll never take that as an excuse not to.

Horses for courses i suppose.

 

[manticle]

It is also possible for novice brewers to steep specialty grain, its like making a cup of tea really so i'll never take that as an excuse not to.

Horses for courses i suppose.

I think the 'excuse' is lack of knowledge, followed by not understanding how easy it actually is. That excuse is fair enough in my book although once you've taken the first step you are unlikely to want to go back.

 

[Fourstar]

I think the 'excuse' is lack of knowledge.

Also the reason for my and Butters rant too i suppose? :lol:

 

[Reon]

Sweetness is balanced by one of, or a combination of, two things; bitterness, and dryness (or roast/astringency). One is imparted by hops, and the other by.....specialty grains.

That is what I am aiming for when I customise my tins but how do I accurately build my beer to have the right balance?

 

[Dazza_devil]

So instead of using a prehopped tin of goo with other additives as a base, a tin of unhopped malt extract (light, dark, amber or wheat) and some dried malt would suffice if using steeped speciality grains and various hops to make the style of beer you desire?
Or perhaps a tin of e.g. Morgans Masterblend to compliment the style in place of the base malt or dried malt?

 

[Fourstar]

So instead of using a prehopped tin of goo with other additives as a base, a tin of unhopped malt extract (light, dark, amber or wheat) and some dried malt would suffice if using steeped speciality grains and various hops to make the style of beer you desire?
Or perhaps a tin of e.g. Morgans Masterblend to compliment the style in place of the base malt or dried malt?

yes but that would be extract brewing, not kit brewing. Difference? You have to do a boil of hops to get your IBU count.

As i said, if you are not that adventeruous yet and are happy with the bitterness a kit gives you, simply get a very light coloured kit within the regional style.

English bitter (for any UK ales)
Pilsner (for Euro beers)
Coopers Pale/or a draught tin (for aussie ales)
Draught tin (for American beers, you will have to-do some hopping to get the distinct citrus hop flavour/aroma. If you know of an APA tin, use that instead)

Then simply plug your tin of goo into a brewing software like promash or beersmith and adjust for its clour. Add your specialties as per the style of beer you are brewing and top off with your LME, DME, Dex etc and you are ready to brew!

a recipe example: Whipped up in 5 mins in beersmith

Stout
Sweet Stout

Batch Size 23L

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
1.00 kg DME (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 25.0 %
1.70 kg Coopers International Selection - English bitter (6.8 SRM) Extract 42.5 %
0.40 kg Milk Sugar (Lactose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 10.0 %
0.25 kg Roasted Barley (Joe White) (412.9 SRM) Grain 6.3 %
0.25 kg Roasted Malt (Joe White) (431.7 SRM) Grain 6.3 %
0.20 kg Carafa II (Weyermann) (415.0 SRM) Grain 5.0 %
0.20 kg Crystal, Dark (Joe White) (86.7 SRM) Grain 5.0 %


Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.051 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.9 %
Bitterness: 25.1 IBU
Est Color: 39.8 SRM


Im assuming you have seen one of these recipe reports before, i use beersmith. To get the IBU's without adding hops, i went to the coopers website for this tin http://www.coopers.com.au/homebrew/hbrew.p...d=1&id=2523
Then i divided the EBC/SRM as well as the total IBU of the tin by 23L for the batch size, that will give you the figures for your batch. Simply plug the per L figures into beersmith in the extract specs sheet and you are away.

Cheers and tasty kit beers (with specialty malts!) :icon_cheers:

 

[manticle]

Also the reason for my and Butters rant too i suppose? :lol:

I guess my point is that any bad practice can be forgiven provided the brewer is interested in improving.

 

[Bizier]

FWIW I came up with this tonight as my next beer to brew, had to deal with all of above issues.
I know I have a propensity to overcomplicate recipes... I am a homebrewer and I can.
Won't be tating like a Carona, that is for sure.


1700.00 gm Coopers Cerveza Can (3.8 EBC) Extract 40.48 %
Coopers Cerveza Bitterness 16.5 IBU (from prev recipe, unsure of accuracy)

500.00 gm Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 11.90 %
1000.00 gm Cane (Beet) Sugar (0.0 EBC) Sugar 23.81 %

500.00 gm Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) (5.9 EBC) Grain 11.90 %
200.00 gm Carafoam (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 4.76 %
100.00 gm Caraaroma (Weyermann) (350.7 EBC) Grain 2.38 %
100.00 gm Carahell (Weyermann) (25.6 EBC) Grain 2.38 %
100.00 gm Carared (Weyermann) (47.3 EBC) Grain 2.38 %

40.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (30 min) Hops 13.3 IBU
20.00 gm Challenger [7.50 %] (15 min) Hops 5.2 IBU

1 Pkgs London Ale III (Wyeast Labs #1318) [Starter 125 ml] Yeast-Ale

Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.48 %
Bitterness: 35.0 IBU
Est Color: 15.4 EBC

 

[buttersd70]

That is what I am aiming for when I customise my tins but how do I accurately build my beer to have the right balance?

Reon
Partly it's experience; partly it's research. and partly it's sitting down and having a good think about each ingredient you are planning to add. What does it do? What are the characteristics? How will it react/compliment/supplement/or clash the other components?

The best thing to do is to find a (comprehensive) list of available malts, which details the characteristics of that malt. (no affiliation, but the craftbrewer website is an excellent start, because Ross has basically put the descriptions straight from the maltsters with each product available. So it's a bit of a one stop resource for information on the different malts, without having to visit each maltsters pages individually). Have a read through what it does, what colour and flavour profile it adds. Then it's a matter of thinking, "what will mix well together to provide either:

a) complimentary flavouring (such as using two different type of crystals that are similar, but slightly different, to add complexity); or
b ) Contrasting flavouring (such as sweet crystal against dry roast). or;
c ) both of the above.

Familiarise yourself with the grains; then have a look at either some commercial examples or various guidelines (such as BJCP - and bear in mind that they are guides only) that have flavour profiles for various styles described, often giving commercial examples and common grains used. Also look at recipes by other people, such as can be found in the database, especially the ones that are extract, partial, or AG, even though you might not be at that stage of brewing yourself, yet. It will start to give you ideas of how different grains work together.

Then combine that knowlege in the development of recipes. (oh, all of the above would apply to hops, as well. ).

It's a bit like juggling, really...introducing a third ball, then a fourth....before you know it, you are juggling with 6 or more balls, all in harmony.

 

[manticle]

It's a bit like juggling, really...introducing a third ball, then a fourth....before you know it, you are juggling with 6 or more balls, all in harmony.

Or realising that the best result is actually just juggling 3 but concentrating on juggling them really well?

 

[buttersd70]

Or realising that the best result is actually just juggling 3 but concentrating on juggling them really well?

Yes, indeed. A good point. I commented earlier on KISS...and that certainly applies. Most good, balanced recipes are certainly uncomplicated. Complicated grain bills and hop schedules can certainly be balanced, but your metaphor of juggling is very apt. If you can barely handle 3 balls, then trying to juggle 6 will likely make you drop them.

 

[manticle]

I'm a man who loves to throw everything into a mix and try and balance it out but my sensible brain in recent years has tried to push me towards simplification.

It's very zen.

My cooking typically involves stocks/jus that have been on a stove for 30 hours, 6 different herbs, five different vegetables and sometimes 3 or 4 different meats. It's excitement and passion that leads me thusly but on occasion, I chill out, make a simple dish with fresh ingredients in the right order and it beats anything else that took me 3 days to make.

 

[manticle]

Could an ignoramus ask what kiss is? Sounds like an acronym that is worthwhile following.

Kit is ****, sally?

Khrist, it's sodding *****?

Kraftbrewing is surprisingly superb ?

Kould I say: super?

 

[buttersd70]

Keep It Simple, Stupid.

:lol:

 

[Dazza_devil]

As i said, if you are not that adventeruous yet and are happy with the bitterness a kit gives you, simply get a very light coloured kit within the regional style.

English bitter (for any UK ales)

Your a champion Fourstar. Thanks for making all that clear.
So you would use a traditional bitter kit as a base for UK ales, but what grains would you use to make an English Bitter from an English Bitter Kit?

Cheers

 

[Fourstar]

Your a champion Fourstar. Thanks for making all that clear.
So you would use a traditional bitter kit as a base for UK ales, but what grains would you use to make an English Bitter from an English Bitter Kit?
Cheers

www.bjcp.org style guidelines are your friend! :icon_cheers:

Crystal malts, possibly a touch of roast malts for colour adjustment, you are really only trying to 'boost' the crystal profile if a bitter is what you set out to achieve. Most kits are quite bland in comparison to a partial or AG. adding around 5% of specialties will brighten things up.. obviously within some balance. For me if i was making a Bitter, i would look for the lightest tin possible. Maybe even a generic 'lager kit'

I'd go
3% Light Crystal 20-30L
1% Dark Crystal (120-150L)
0.5-1% Choc/Carafa special (Dependant on the base kit colour)

 

[Brewer_010]

I've used 780g specialty malts in a stout extract recipe (19.5%), but more usually around 5 - 15% in paley beers. It all depends on the recipe. I never use more than 10% medium or dark crystal grains.

I like most of my beers dry to have a dry finish [around the 1004-1008 mark] so this limits the use of specialty malts in my recipes.