Sour beer not souring!

[checkers]

Sour brewers,

So I've been given a heap of mango cheeks and decided to try an make a mango sour.

Research has lead me to believe 5 caps of this here pure lacto culture into 23l of 1.045 wort lowered to ph4.8 with an estimated 4 IBU sitting at a constant 23c after 48hrs should drop to PH 3.4 or something similar.. problem is after 2 days my ph is still 4.8 and I'm starting to worry something else might take off in there very soon. Where did I go wrong??

 

[checkers]

 

[JDW81]

I don't trust anything that has ethical in the title.

There is no way of knowing the viability of the lactobacillus in those capsules, or how they will respond to wort.

I'd be inclined to toss it, as if it hasn't started to sour in the first 24-48 hours it is unlikely to sours before it gets funky in a really bad way.

Next time I'd go with a commercial culture from white labs or wyeast. Might cost you a bit more, but at least you know you've got bugs that are bred to be pitched into wort.

JD

 

[Salt]

Sour brewers,

So I've been given a heap of mango cheeks and decided to try an make a mango sour.

Research has lead me to believe 5 caps of this here pure lacto culture into 23l of 1.045 wort lowered to ph4.8 with an estimated 4 IBU sitting at a constant 23c after 48hrs should drop to PH 3.4 or something similar.. problem is after 2 days my ph is still 4.8 and I'm starting to worry something else might take off in there very soon. Where did I go wrong??

Hey Checkers...

I have used this source of Lacto to inoculate my kettle sours with good success. While by no means am I a pro in Kettle Souring, with three batches under my belt. All three have come out really good with no detectable faults or off flavours. So take my steps as some info, and not gospel! My technique was pulled together from various online articles, podcasts, Milk the Funk wiki and discussions with Pro Brewers who kettle sour.

I recently posted this on another thread regarding Lacto...
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/89263-lactobacillus/?p=1407032

In regards to what you have done...I think that 23c is too cool for kicking this Lacto off. From what I have read Lacto likes to be warm. I start my inoculation beteen 40c-45c and then let it free drop. However I the kettle wrapped in blankets on a mat under the stairs. However in Winter this is a pretty cool part of the house. I dont bother with a heat source etc, as this method has worked each time...so happy to keep doing it as it is pretty simple.

What is your grain bill? Are you standard mashing/sparging etc and collecting the wort. Do you heat to pasteurize first or do a short boil? Once you have dropped the wort to around 45c and lowered the pH with Lactic Acid (to around pH 4.5) then add a fair amount of CO2 to the kettle and cover with gladwrap and the pot lid.

You should get a drop in pH within the first 24hrs but I have always left it for 48hrs and not checked progression. But my latest dropped to pH 3.2 in 48hrs. 23Lts of 1.042 with 5 caps of this Lacto.

Oh, how are you adding the caps? Opening them and sprinkling in or whole caps. You will need to open them if you aren't and sprinkle in the powder.

And how are you measuring your pH?

IBUs aren't important - as in to say...you dont need to add them pre-boil - leave them out if you want...or put them in for the fun of it...or add to boil post souring.


Mango sour is on my list. I have just done a Raspberry Berliner and it is tasting amazing pre-bottling.

 

[RelaxedBrewer]

IBS contains lacto P I think it is highly intolerant to IBU and it prefers 30C+.

Most people that have had success with it have used a starter and sticking to 30C+ without and hops.

 

[Salt]

I don't trust anything that has ethical in the title.

There is no way of knowing the viability of the lactobacillus in those capsules, or how they will respond to wort.

I'd be inclined to toss it, as if it hasn't started to sour in the first 24-48 hours it is unlikely to sours before it gets funky in a really bad way.

Next time I'd go with a commercial culture from white labs or wyeast. Might cost you a bit more, but at least you know you've got bugs that are bred to be pitched into wort.

JD

I would have to disagree - disagreeing based on my experience with this exact product, based on others I know who use it and also MTF members who have used it with great success...this is a pure culture and 100% Lacto Plantarum...20 Billion count per capsule. Why would you not trust it?

You might not know the viability, but the health shop should have these in the fridge when you buy them...however you don't know the viability and how well White Labs or Wyeast has been handled before it reaches you either.

There are a number of proven and documented ways to get a good culture of Lacto, probiotics caps, probiotic drinks, yoghurt etc

I would not give up on using this product (however check dates on bottle etc)...however the batch in question I can't say whether to ditch it or not.

my 2c

 

[checkers]

Hey Checkers...

I have used this source of Lacto to inoculate my kettle sours with good success. While by no means am I a pro in Kettle Souring, with three batches under my belt. All three have come out really good with no detectable faults or off flavours. So take my steps as some info, and not gospel! My technique was pulled together from various online articles, podcasts, Milk the Funk wiki and discussions with Pro Brewers who kettle sour.

I recently posted this on another thread regarding Lacto...
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/89263-lactobacillus/?p=1407032

In regards to what you have done...I think that 23c is too cool for kicking this Lacto off. From what I have read Lacto likes to be warm. I start my inoculation beteen 40c-45c and then let it free drop. However I the kettle wrapped in blankets on a mat under the stairs. However in Winter this is a pretty cool part of the house. I dont bother with a heat source etc, as this method has worked each time...so happy to keep doing it as it is pretty simple.

What is your grain bill? Are you standard mashing/sparging etc and collecting the wort. Do you heat to pasteurize first or do a short boil? Once you have dropped the wort to around 45c and lowered the pH with Lactic Acid (to around pH 4.5) then add a fair amount of CO2 to the kettle and cover with gladwrap and the pot lid.

You should get a drop in pH within the first 24hrs but I have always left it for 48hrs and not checked progression. But my latest dropped to pH 3.2 in 48hrs. 23Lts of 1.042 with 5 caps of this Lacto.

Oh, how are you adding the caps? Opening them and sprinkling in or whole caps. You will need to open them if you aren't and sprinkle in the powder.

And how are you measuring your pH?

IBUs aren't important - as in to say...you dont need to add them pre-boil - leave them out if you want...or put them in for the fun of it...or add to boil post souring.


Mango sour is on my list. I have just done a Raspberry Berliner and it is tasting amazing pre-bottling.

Cheers bud,

Yes I believe I got the idea for this from you off here on a thread about PH?
Thanks heaps bud.
So I've upped the temp to 33c
I used 4g of POR @60min boil
I cubed the beer then put it in feementer at 23c, sprinkled the 5 capsules over the wort, half blew in the headspace from a finished keg along with a little shit than thought that was a bad idea so just covered with glad wrap
Mash was 80% pils, 20% wheat @67 then 15@72 all in a homemade recirc biab keggle with 19l big w malt pipe
I'll give it tonight then I may just have to pitch my yeast anyway. Then if it's no good it's no good. :-(

 

[checkers]

I don't trust anything that has ethical in the title.

There is no way of knowing the viability of the lactobacillus in those capsules, or how they will respond to wort.

I'd be inclined to toss it, as if it hasn't started to sour in the first 24-48 hours it is unlikely to sours before it gets funky in a really bad way.

Next time I'd go with a commercial culture from white labs or wyeast. Might cost you a bit more, but at least you know you've got bugs that are bred to be pitched into wort.

JD

hanks bud, yeah that might be the go and a little more research

 

[damoninja]

Yeah I've used this strain from this brand and other brands, 3L test batch I did recently got to pH 3.2 and is sour like an unripe granny smith apple.

These work for kettle souring just fine and shit loads of people use them. The viability of these depends on how they are stored, but plenty of L plantarum caps are stable at room temp.

Pitch rate is fine I do 1 cap per 4L wort.

My guess is these caps are fine but 4 IBU is too high. If you want to do this with these, sour first, bitter later.

 

[checkers]

Yeah I've used this strain from this brand and other brands, 3L test batch I did recently got to pH 3.2 and is sour like an unripe granny smith apple.

These work for kettle souring just fine and shit loads of people use them. The viability of these depends on how they are stored, but plenty of L plantarum caps are stable at room temp.

Pitch rate is fine I do 1 cap per 4L wort.

My guess is these caps are fine but 4 IBU is too high. If you want to do this with these, sour first, bitter later.

Thanks mate.

Do you think kettle souring using an exposed element in the wort hooked up to temp control would work? Or would the element scour have the little lactos hahaha

 

[checkers]

*scorch

 

[damoninja]

Thanks mate.

Do you think kettle souring using an exposed element in the wort hooked up to temp control would work? Or would the element scour have the little lactos hahaha

The amount of actual bacteria that will be present in the wort won't be anything like a big yeast cake like you might be imagining and bacteria are 10s of times smaller than a yeast cell. You'll barely notice they're there, looks kinda like a bit of dust.

Those dead bacteria once cooked will serve as great nutrient to your yeast

 

[checkers]

Maaaad it's happening!!
Thanks bud!!!

 

[checkers]

FYI - 3 hrs after pumping up to 40c!!

 

[TheWiggman]

I was going to say that 23°C is too low. You need the wort in the right temp to support the growth of the cultures. 40°C is par for the course. Make sure you taste it regularly and once it's hit your threshold get it sparged and boiling.

 

[checkers]

It is in the fermenter, I was planing on letting it do its thing for 2 days then lower temp to 18c and pitch a pack of US-05. Let that ferment out then ad mangoes for a week and bottle?

Any harm in this method?

 

[damoninja]

It is in the fermenter, I was planing on letting it do its thing for 2 days then lower temp to 18c and pitch a pack of US-05. Let that ferment out then ad mangoes for a week and bottle?

Any harm in this method?

Given the bug used 2 days should make it sour enough but I've had this strain take 3-4 days. Test the pH and have a taste after 2 days.

In theory this ought to get down to pH ~3.2 in 24 hours before it conks out.

If you taste it at say pH 3.4 and that's sour enough if you want to stop it souring further you should chill and pitch ASAP but ~3.2 should be good it's quite sour.

Are you planning on pasteurising the fruit in any way or just using the flesh from under the skin?

 

[TheWiggman]

Ahh ok. Well I'm not a guru in sours but I think there is a bit of confusion with your method. There are 2 approaches to sours -

1. Traditional way. Allow ferment to largely complete then add lacto/brett/pedio to do its thing over a period of weeks to years. And it WILL takes weeks in some cases to show signs of life.
2. Rapid souring. Immediately following mash the culture is added and the temp held at 40°C to allow the bugs to work quickly. Once the right degree of sourness is achieved, mash out and boil. This stops the wild yeast action and kills it, but the sour flavour will carry over into the ferment.

You seem to have mixed the two up and are trying to do a rapid sour in the fermenter. Unfortunately you're probably going to end up with a mouth-puckeringly sour beer that will, as JDW says, be off-putting. Because the wort conditions don't favour typical beer yeasts adding a yeast now will likely yield poor results. And because the lacto is already in there, it will keep working away despite the yeast.
Chalk this one up as a learning experience and probably move that fermenter away from the brewery before it infects the place.

 

[damoninja]

Ahh ok. Well I'm not a guru in sours but I think there is a bit of confusion with your method. There are 2 approaches to sours -

1. Traditional way. Allow ferment to largely complete then add lacto/brett/pedio to do its thing over a period of weeks to years. And it WILL takes weeks in some cases to show signs of life.
2. Rapid souring. Immediately following mash the culture is added and the temp held at 40°C to allow the bugs to work quickly. Once the right degree of sourness is achieved, mash out and boil. This stops the wild yeast action and kills it, but the sour flavour will carry over into the ferment.

You seem to have mixed the two up and are trying to do a rapid sour in the fermenter. Unfortunately you're probably going to end up with a mouth-puckeringly sour beer that will, as JDW says, be off-putting. Because the wort conditions don't favour typical beer yeasts adding a yeast now will likely yield poor results. And because the lacto is already in there, it will keep working away despite the yeast.
Chalk this one up as a learning experience and probably move that fermenter away from the brewery before it infects the place.

I've done exactly what he's done several times with different lacto strains, neither of the beers I brewed were mouth puckering, depending on the strain used it'll stop at 3.4 or 3.2, sometimes as low as 3.1 which is usually pretty tart. It won't keep just going and going, it'll conk out in a few days and certainly won't keep going once yeast start going at it.

I've mentioned in other threads though - pH does not always indicate how sour it will taste, the relative sourness depends on the recipe.

Lacto (this one) while fairly acid resistant is fairly fragile you can eradicate it from the brewery fairly easily with some boiling water, sodium percarbonate, starsan and finally it won't take to beers with basically any IBUs. If you had brett in here I'd say forget about it

If you are concerned about contamination in your fermenters just dedicate this fermenter to lacto / sours.

Looking forward to see what he reports back

 

[damoninja]

a mouth-puckeringly sour beer that will, as JDW says, be off-putting.

If this does happen - blend.