SMASH development

[a1149913]

Dear all,

I'm looking to put together some smash recipes to better understand what various base malts and hops bring to the table. I'm a sucker for American West Coast APA's and IPA's and hence am looking to test out various super late hop additions.

Any advice on OG, FG, IBU's,total hops, hop timepoints, or number of additions would be much appreciated.





Boil Size: 28.96 l
Post Boil Volume: 24.96 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 23.00 l
Bottling Volume: 22.50 l
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated FG: 1.011 SG
Estimated Color: 8.4 EBC
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 83.5 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Recipe: Citra SMASH
Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
5.25 kg Barrett Burston ALE (5.0 EBC) Grain 1 100.0 %
80.00 g Citra [13.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 2 42.1 IBUs
50.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 3 0.0 IBUs


Recipe: Simcoe SMASH
Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
5.25 kg Barrett Burston ALE (5.0 EBC) Grain 1 100.0 %
80.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 2 42.1 IBUs
50.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 3 0.0 IBUs


Recipe: Amarillo SMASH
Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
5.25 kg Barrett Burston ALE (5.0 EBC) Grain 1 100.0 %
100.00 g Amarillo [8.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 2 34.4 IBUs
50.00 g Amarillo [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 3 0.0 IBUs

 

[jonnir]

I'm looking at doing something similar myself! Exciting times ahead

 

[Blind Dog]

Just a thought, but why not split a single batch in half or thirds? Mash / lauter / sparge as normal, boil without hops and then split into 2 10l cubes (or 3 8L cubes) with the 10 min hops already in each cube.

You may want to recalculate the 10min additions as 15 or 20 min additions

Fermenting may be a touch tricky unless you have smaller fermenters handy, although I've fermented 10L batches in 30L fermenters before without issue.

May not appeal to you, but you might get the same info quicker.

 

[IsonAd]

Another advantage of splitting and doing all at once is that you can blend the beers afterwards to find out how the hops play together- with the same age beers. But as blind dog days only if you have space/equipment/inclination

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

My opinion (considered as it is) that there is a big flaw in the hopping schedules.

When I was doing what you were doing, I ended up making it all 10 minute (or very late) additions with hops like Citra, Galaxy and Nelson Sauvin.

BUT!!!!!!!!!

The problem is that you end up with passion pop/gooseberry pop/fanta and passion pop. Those 10 minute additions won't taste like 42 IBU or so, they'll taste like soft drink beer.

If you want that, in order to see what a hop brings to the table, by all means. You'll learn a ton, but get a ton of beer that isn't really easy to get through.

If you want to see what they bring to the table bittering and aroma/flavour wise, you could do a 60 minute addition to bitter about 15IBU and use your 10 minute (assuming you chill - the figures posted above seem to indicate you do) to bring the remaining 20-30 IBU you want to the table. You'll also use far less hops.

 

[a1149913]

Thanks raja,
Is the reasoning that there won't be enough bitterness to balance the flavour? or is more that 100g is just too much of an addition at that time point?

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

More that a good beer (and a beer within style) is a matter of balancing malt, yeast flavours and hop bitterness (and flavour).

What happens with a beer like that, you have body, you have flavour, but not enough bitterness to balance. It ends up tasting like 5 IBU, even though the figures say it's 40.

 

[Dave70]

My opinion (considered as it is) that there is a big flaw in the hopping schedules.

When I was doing what you were doing, I ended up making it all 10 minute (or very late) additions with hops like Citra, Galaxy and Nelson Sauvin.

BUT!!!!!!!!!

The problem is that you end up with passion pop/gooseberry pop/fanta and passion pop. Those 10 minute additions won't taste like 42 IBU or so, they'll taste like soft drink beer.

If you want that, in order to see what a hop brings to the table, by all means. You'll learn a ton, but get a ton of beer that isn't really easy to get through.

If you want to see what they bring to the table bittering and aroma/flavour wise, you could do a 60 minute addition to bitter about 15IBU and use your 10 minute (assuming you chill - the figures posted above seem to indicate you do) to bring the remaining 20-30 IBU you want to the table. You'll also use far less hops.

Sounds exactly like a batch of pilsner I'm slowly chipping away at. Hefty late additions with Moteuka has left the lot tasting like some kind of fizzy lemon malt drink, even though it looked good on paper.
Trying to make that light larger taste like an IPA will always disappoint, as I've discovered..

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Sounds exactly like a batch of pilsner I'm slowly chipping away at. Hefty late additions with Moteuka has left the lot tasting like some kind of fizzy lemon malt drink, even though it looked good on paper.
Trying to make that light larger taste like an IPA will always disappoint, as I've discovered..

Moon Dog's love tap is about the only good example I've seen (and I reckon it's a beer that even with a little poor handling could really go to poo). They go 34IBU (IIRC), with a lager body.

I reckon it can be done, it's just a matter of getting something with punchy enough bitterness to offset the body (but not too much as there isn't a massive body in a light lager), and then gently attack it with 15-20 at the end of the boil to give the hoppiness.

 

[philmud]

LRG, I assume your advice re hop schedules extends to pretty much any hoppy style. Is there a rule of thumb, in terms of percentage IBUs that should be added early?

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

LRG, I assume your advice re hop schedules extends to pretty much any hoppy style. Is there a rule of thumb, in terms of percentage IBUs that should be added early?

Not quite.

I tend to with hoppy styles (over)simplify it to "is it an APA level or an IPA level" and go from there.

For those I deem to be APA level, I go with 15 IBU from the early additions. For those with IPA level I go to 20-30 IBU from early additions.

So even if I'm doing an 80 IBU IPA, it'll be much the same as a 50IBU IPA in terms of early additions, and I just bump up the late additions to really give it some flavour.

My big caveat with that, is obviously the oversimplification. But also, I brewed an IIPA and the above rule doesn't apply to it, and as a result, I'm going to continue tweaking the recipe to see where it goes from there.

If you wanted a percentage, I generally go 40-50% early, the balance at 10 minutes (assuming chill). That works for me. If I no-chill (which I almost exclusively do now), the 10 minute addition is cube hopped and the percentage is more closer to that 40% level, as I find cubing to be closer to 15-20min equivalent.

Others like continuing additions starting from 60 and in 5 minute increments all the way down to 0. Their schedules do not look anything like mine.

 

[beercus]

I did a citra only brew recently. I dry hopped about 35g in 22L on day 7 (of a 14 day primary) and that was heaps, i'm not sure i would want more in there, otherwise it will be too passion popish as suggested above....

Great flavour from citra, one of my favorites....

beercus

 

[Blind Dog]

[SIZE=medium]With apologies for the slight hijack, but why not bitter with something clean and neutral (e.g. Magnum) to say 15 IBU and then cube hop with the variety of your choice for another 20-25 IBU? That way you could still split the batch, and have them all ready for direct side by side comparisons[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]And yes I may well be asking for my sake as much as (or more than) the OPs[/SIZE]

 

[Blind Dog]

:icon_offtopic: (slightly)

Just wondered if anyone had tried the dry hopping bud light (or similar - maybe cascade light?) experiment: http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2013/03/dry-hopped-bud-light.html

seems a quicker way to gain knowledge than numerous SMaSH brews, but only if it actulally works

 

[a1149913]

Blind dog, thank you so much for posting that! I will definitely give this a go. Any thoughts on which local beer to use for this experiment?

 

[skb]

:icon_offtopic: (slightly)

Just wondered if anyone had tried the dry hopping bud light (or similar - maybe cascade light?) experiment: http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2013/03/dry-hopped-bud-light.html

seems a quicker way to gain knowledge than numerous SMaSH brews, but only if it actulally works

What a bloody great idea !!!

 

[Blind Dog]

Not sure it matters so long as it brigns little to the table and doesnt have a premium price tag and you find it at least drinkable as a base beer. Boags light or cascade light spring to mind

I've intended to do this since i first read it about a year ago and even bought a case of Coopers pale ale to use as the base. but then drank the Coopers unadulterated as its too nice as is!

 

[coloneldom]

Bit of late input on this one, but I'm interested in doing something similar in terms if hop and small batch experimentation. I've seen some 5L glass carboy fermenters available at HB stores, is there any reason you couldn't split your batch pre boil, then vary your hops between separate smaller boils. This would allow you to experiment with bittering/flavouring/aroma adds.