Reclaiming My Aroma

Australia & New Zealand Homebrewing Forum

Help Support Australia & New Zealand Homebrewing Forum:

CONNOR BREWARE

Well-Known Member
Joined
18/5/09
Messages
560
Reaction score
20
Location
Belmont, Perth WA
I was doing the first brew, AIPA, on a new rig a fortnight ago and it became a rushed job with piss poor planning causing all sorts of problems.

Now to cut to the chase, my hop screen blocked and then started sending chunks of trub out with the wort. So the plate chiller was by-passed in fear of filling it with hot break etc.

I ended up with an accidental no chill. Ive never no chilled or paid much attention to the no chill discussions. After 7 days sitting on a lot of hot break I siphoned of 6 litres and stepped up a big starter, aerating and adding nutrients. blah blah blah

It's just finished in the primary and all I'm getting is bitterness. The intention was the 40grams of cascade pellets at flame out would give it a lovely big aroma. My thoughts are the no chill turned those aroma hops in bittering hops. Is this a accurate assumption? Should I be working out IBU based on the cascade being used at 60 due to the hot break in the no chill container.

hop schedule as follows
40.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 41.0 IBUs
20.00 g Kohatu [6.80 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 7 9.5 IBUs
20.00 g Wai-iti [2.80 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 8 3.9 IBUs
20.00 g Wai-iti [2.80 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 2.5 IBUs
15.00 g Kohatu [6.80 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 10 4.6 IBUs
20.00 g Kohatu [6.80 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 11 2.5 IBUs
15.00 g Wai-iti [2.80 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 12 0.8 IBUs
40.00 g Cascade [5.60 %] - Aroma Steep 0.0 min Hop 13 0.0 IBUs

I'm considering adding Citra in the secondary to get me the nice big aroma hit I was aiming for.

cheers

Ciro
 

bignath

"Grains don't grow up to be chips, son"
Joined
3/11/08
Messages
2,611
Reaction score
40
I was doing the first brew, AIPA, on a new rig a fortnight ago and it became a rushed job with piss poor planning causing all sorts of problems.

Now to cut to the chase, my hop screen blocked and then started sending chunks of trub out with the wort. So the plate chiller was by-passed in fear of filling it with hot break etc.

I ended up with an accidental no chill. Ive never no chilled or paid much attention to the no chill discussions. After 7 days sitting on a lot of hot break I siphoned of 6 litres and stepped up a big starter, aerating and adding nutrients. blah blah blah

It's just finished in the primary and all I'm getting is bitterness. The intention was the 40grams of cascade pellets at flame out would give it a lovely big aroma. My thoughts are the no chill turned those aroma hops in bittering hops. Is this a accurate assumption? Should I be working out IBU based on the cascade being used at 60 due to the hot break in the no chill container.

hop schedule as follows
40.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 41.0 IBUs
20.00 g Kohatu [6.80 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 7 9.5 IBUs
20.00 g Wai-iti [2.80 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 8 3.9 IBUs
20.00 g Wai-iti [2.80 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 2.5 IBUs
15.00 g Kohatu [6.80 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 10 4.6 IBUs
20.00 g Kohatu [6.80 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 11 2.5 IBUs
15.00 g Wai-iti [2.80 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 12 0.8 IBUs
40.00 g Cascade [5.60 %] - Aroma Steep 0.0 min Hop 13 0.0 IBUs

I'm considering adding Citra in the secondary to get me the nice big aroma hit I was aiming for.

cheers

Ciro
Whats your batch size? Rough guess just based on the ibus im guessing around 23/25lt's??

Ive never used kohatu or wai-iti, but im fairly experienced with NS. Id be very wary of doing the NS like that.
It can be an amazing hop, but it can be a bitch if not treated with respect either.

Most would tend to agree, NS is better at 30min and less. It plays well with others like cascade though. The other two hops have thrown me though, so no idea what to recommend with those.

Be wary/careful of early hopping with Nelson....
 

dr K

Well-Known Member
Joined
22/9/05
Messages
1,270
Reaction score
58
Looks like a ZIPA given that hop bill..

Plate chillers are great but they don't remove trub, nor does a hop screen which may have a wider opening than your plate (screen) chiller. As to turning aroam into bittering, well, in order to get the full amount of bittering you have to boil for 60 minutes, something to do with solubility and isomerisation I am told. Looking at the bittering calculations given on tools such as ProMash and BeerSmith I tend to think that the apparent increase in IBU's due to no-chill is a bit unfounded (I do not say that no-chill will not increase IBU's, clearly with late additions it will but to a very small extent ), certainly with 150gms before "flameout" all compressed into 6 litres....your 40g of cascade is going to be insignificant, go on, add the citra if you think it will reduce bitterness..

!!!!!
K
 

bum

Not entitled to an opinion
Joined
19/2/09
Messages
11,585
Reaction score
910
Uh...okay. Did you even read his post, Big Nath?

No, Ciro, you should not consider your 0 min addition as 60 now. Most people talk in terms of 20 minutes to 10 minutes "extra" when accounting for no-chilling. Me in my brewery, I estimate it around 15 minutes. What you need to be aware of, however, is that all of your additions will have gained more IBU now (to varying degrees). Calculating IBU for no-chill isn't really an exact science as yet. This experience should give you some idea what you reckon for yourself once it starts drinking.

If cascade is what you wanted for aroma just add more of that. Dry hop/hop tea, whatever takes your fancy. Shouldn't be an issue.

If it ends up being too bitter for you, you could always look at blending it with something else you have on hand or brewing something for the purpose.

[EDIT: SO MANY TYPOS!]
 

bignath

"Grains don't grow up to be chips, son"
Joined
3/11/08
Messages
2,611
Reaction score
40
Uh...okay. Did you even read his post, Big Nath?

No, Ciro, you should not consider your 0 min addition as 60 now. Most people talk in terms of 20 minutes to 10 minutes "extra" when accounting for no-chilling. Me in my brewery, I estimate it around 15 minutes. What you need to be aware of, however, is that all of your additions will have gained more IBU now (to varying degrees). Calculating IBU for no-chill isn't really an exact science as yet. This experience should give you some idea what you reckon for yourself once it starts drinking.

If cascade is what you wanted for aroma just add more of that. Dry hop/hop tea, whatever takes your fancy. Shouldn't be an issue.

If it ends up being too bitter for you, you could always look at blending it with something else you have on hand or brewing something for the purpose.

[EDIT: SO MANY TYPOS!]
Yeah, i read it... How come?

Too late to do much about it now. Its bitter. He knows it. He doesnt appear to know why. Unless he has some kind of amazing 'bitterness be gone' machine....

All i was trying to do was shed some light on some contributing factors to his bitterness, as that hop bill looked suspicious to me. He may have used NS before that way in a previous brew and enjoyed it. I wouldnt have put NS at that level of IBU at that time regardless of whether brewday problems ensued or not. It made me think based on where NS is really good, that he may not have brewed with it before.

Basically, even if everything went to plan, and he was able to use his chiller, i still would expect it to be too heavy handed on NS.

HMMV.
 

bum

Not entitled to an opinion
Joined
19/2/09
Messages
11,585
Reaction score
910
Yeah, i read it... How come?

Too late to do much about it now. Its bitter. He knows it. He doesnt appear to know why. Unless he has some kind of amazing 'bitterness be gone' machine....

All i was trying to do was shed some light on some contributing factors to his bitterness, as that hop bill looked suspicious to me. He may have used NS before that way in a previous brew and enjoyed it. I wouldnt have put NS at that level of IBU at that time regardless of whether brewday problems ensued or not. It made me think based on where NS is really good, that he may not have brewed with it before.

Basically, even if everything went to plan, and he was able to use his chiller, i still would expect it to be too heavy handed on NS.

HMMV.
I'm sure that will put his mind at ease whenever he gets around to asking a question about that.
 

bignath

"Grains don't grow up to be chips, son"
Joined
3/11/08
Messages
2,611
Reaction score
40
I'm sure that will put his mind at ease whenever he gets around to asking a question about that.
Yeah it probably fuckin will bum...

Not sure why youve had a go at me mate. I stand by my response. That hop bill looks like he hasnt used it before.

Ill bet he changes the recipe before he redoes it.

3mins it took you to jump back in with your response, mustve been waiting for me...

The first time i used NS, i, like a lot of others, went too far with it. Just trying to save him, or anyone else who reads this thread, from what i think would be a mistake to redo.
 

bum

Not entitled to an opinion
Joined
19/2/09
Messages
11,585
Reaction score
910
Not sure why youve had a go at me mate.
Because you've not addressed a single of his questions.

Regardless, he has , what?, 110g of late hops no-chilled when he expected to be chilling and you want to pin the higher than expected bitterness on the 60minute addition? Jesus Christ. I can see these additions aren't high-alpha but **** me drunk.
 

bignath

"Grains don't grow up to be chips, son"
Joined
3/11/08
Messages
2,611
Reaction score
40
Maybe it has something to do with your Dr Feelgood avatar
:icon_offtopic:

Dont tell me he likes emo..... :lol:

When i was younger, and starting out on the drums, i wanted to be Tommy Lee more than you can imagine. Saw them last year in Melbourne. They can still rock out too. Awesome gig.
 

bignath

"Grains don't grow up to be chips, son"
Joined
3/11/08
Messages
2,611
Reaction score
40
Because you've not addressed a single of his questions.

Regardless, he has , what?, 110g of late hops no-chilled when he expected to be chilling and you want to pin the higher than expected bitterness on the 60minute addition? Jesus Christ. I can see these additions aren't high-alpha but **** me drunk.
FFS bum, who made you the thread police?

Sorry, i forgot. Every one of your posts are helpful, insightful, and you, of course only stick to the actual question. How very silly of me.

He stated his intended brew process.
It didnt go to plan.
He goes on in the next paragraph to say.....'all im getting is bitterness'.

Well, im not surprised based on that hop bill. Or a perceived bitterness anyway. NS can be harsh as hell if used in decent qty early.
Sounds like he wasnt/isnt aware of it. Therefore i thought i was helping him out. Im a no chiller, so yeah i know the main cause is the extra bitterness extracted that he wasnt counting on. Doesnt mean he shouldnt be aware of that particular hop used early.

If you disagree with me, then fine. I dont need your approval on my posts before i press the go button. But, lets drop this bullshit and stop either of us from derailing another thread.
 

Thirsty Boy

ICB - tight shorts and poor attitude. **** yeah!
Joined
21/5/06
Messages
4,544
Reaction score
106
Looks like a ZIPA given that hop bill..

Looking at the bittering calculations given on tools such as ProMash and BeerSmith I tend to think that the apparent increase in IBU's due to no-chill is a bit unfounded (I do not say that no-chill will not increase IBU's, clearly with late additions it will but to a very small extent )

!!!!!
K
Actually K, the change is of the order that bum described in his post - its not somehting that I consider speculation anymore. I've done quite a few IBU analyses of no-chill vs chill beers in the lab and the beers are measurably more bitter. I haven't done nearly enough to accurately quantify it, but its certainly on the order of having boiled "all" your hops for 15-20mins longer than you actually did. Thats vs immediate post boil chilling like an immersion chiller, if you had a significant whirlpool rest with hot wort before you plate chilled, the difference would be less apparent of course because doing that adds it own "extra" bitterness.

Edit - because first time round I was just repeating what bum said almost exactly.
 

Brewman_

AHB Sponsor
AHB Sponsor
Joined
28/9/07
Messages
1,491
Reaction score
647
Duke of Paddy,
I think your path down the no chill will work out fine. Just add the Cascade as a hop tea before you pitch the yeast.
Bye the way I don'y think 40 grams of cascade anywhere will balance the (any) bitterness.
Fear
Edit:
Read the post agian. Besides the Cascade I am not sure why you have just bitterness? What about the malt and with that hop bill, where has it gone? I brew beers like this with much smaller hop bills, l no chill and get aroma that is absolutley sensational, without further hop additions right through the process. I guess it depends on your expectations I suppose. I am on the other side - I have never chilled always gone to cube.
 

CONNOR BREWARE

Well-Known Member
Joined
18/5/09
Messages
560
Reaction score
20
Location
Belmont, Perth WA
Dr k, yes it was supposed to be my version of a hop zombie. The 6 lts was drawn off as a stater for the full 23 litre batch a week after no chill. I omitted that in my 'state of mind' I didn't add wirlfloc and get a good trub cone going. So that's why I didn't use the chiller as you have rightly pointed out its not a filter.

Nath, yeh first time using NS. Point taken. Mind you my real problem was an unexpected non balanced bitterness due to a distinct lack of aroma.

Bum and thirsty boy; ok so that gives me a good idea on what has happened.

From here what do you guys think would be a good amount of secondary hop addition to get a balanced aroma on this IPA.

I know would like to add Citra. However I only have 60 g. Note The beer is currently ramping up for it's D rest. Plenty of cascade on hand.

Cheers for all the detailed answers.

Ciro
 

Brewman_

AHB Sponsor
AHB Sponsor
Joined
28/9/07
Messages
1,491
Reaction score
647
Duew of Paddy,
Yes I find the whirpool hops 1mins additions do give a good aroma if they are significant, like 40g, but that is a matter of opinion.

To answer your question on how much finishing hop to add in terms of dry hop, I would go for about 1 gram per litre.
Hope it helps, Fear
 
Top