Recipe Advice: Foreign Extra Stout

[hsb]

I've already brewed up the below and a very fine drop it is too. It's very big on the coffee/bitter notes but not undrinkably so.
I originally planned to add some coffee to secondary but there really is no need, the coffee taste is *massive* as it is.

I'm going to go again with this recipe but want to pull back on the bitterness a little (from the malt) and was just after advice on what I can do based around the same ingredients as below, in order to keep it balanced.

From my feeble palate, I'm thinking that the .35kg Black Malt & the .35kg Carafa II is where the excess bitterness is coming from but which to pull back and what to swap it with?

Anyone have any tips? I was also pondering adding a vanilla pod to secondary but get the feeling I will again chicken out from risking good beer with a weird late addition...(no bad thing perhaps)

I'm happy with the overall body/strength, just that big coffee bitterness, swap out the Carafa II for MO? Cheers.

This was my first AG stout so I've popped my dark cherry but be gentle, I'm still tender

Coffee Stout #1
Recipe Specifications
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Batch Size: 21.00 L
Boil Size: 30.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.063 SG
Estimated Color: 87.9 EBC
Estimated IBU: 43.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU

4.50 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 76.3 %
0.35 kg Black (Patent) Malt (985.0 EBC) Grain 5.9 %
0.35 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (118.2 EBC) Grain 5.9 %
0.35 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (236.4 EBC) Grain 5.9 %
0.35 kg Roasted Barley (591.0 EBC) Grain 5.9 %substituted with (Carafa Special T2 Malt (Weyermann) EBC 1100 - 1200 (I don't have Roasted Barley specifically, think Carafa II is RB anyway?)

80.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00%] (80 min) Hops 44.6 IBU

1 Pkgs Thames Valley Ale (Wyeast Labs #1275)

Total Grain Weight: 5.90 kg
Vital Statistics: 1064/1016 (6.4% ABV)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[mje1980]

Maybe too much black malt??. If you're getting harshness from your dark grains, you can\also add them late in the mash ( 15 mins to end of mash ), and it will smooth them out nicely. i do it in every dark beer, lots of roasty flavours without the harsh acrid/bitter/sharp character.

 

[Bribie G]

Mate I'd say your bitterness is largely coming from the 44.6 IBU. For a FES I'd be doing a background bittering with something neutral like Magnum or Admiral to 25 - 30 IBU and if you want a bit of hop flavour and aroma, go some dry hopping with some Styrians or something.

I regularly use up to a kilo of Roast Barley and it doesn't give excess bitterness, and I'm not a hop hound either.

edit: MJE got in first, yes +1 for late addition of the black stuff. The Oatmeal stout that got me 3rd in the state had the RB added actually at mashout.

 

[mje1980]

I didn't think the Carafa 2 was roast barley. Wasn't sure so i checked with the wey site. Its listed under chocolate malt, but then mentions that is in in fact a roasted barley. ??

 

[~MikE]

if you cbf changing the recipe, you could always go with a lower attenuating yeast maybe? the carafa ii wouldn't be contributing nearly as much to malt bitterness as the black malt IMO, but if you wind back the black malt, you'd be losing some coffee awesomeness...

 

[hsb]

Thanks gents, I do a 90 minute mash so maybe I will leave the dark stuff out until the end. The bitterness I'm feeling is definitely a malt-thing, the Goldings has just smoothed right into the background but I am a bit of a hop hound It might be my language failing me and the word I'm looking for is more likely astringency or something, though I rarely 'pucker' when drinking beer?!

My mash is a pretty simple operation - Batch style - 2 1/2 times grain volume - chuck it all in to get 66C or thereabouts -leave 90minutes, then I ramp up the temperature to reach about 77C after adding 1/2 remaining Boil Volume, leave for 10 minutes, then repeat that step to get my pre boil volume.

So I'd be wanting to trim the Black Malt back a teeny bit - and add it (and Carafa II) once I've finished my First Runnings (in time to have 84C water poured on it to get a 77C mash temp)??


*Yes - I was confused about Carafa II and whether it is Roast Barley or not but I reached the WTH moment and just threw it in anyway and can report it tastes good, I think the coffee flavour is definitely the Black Malt.

 

[Bribie G]

I didn't think the Carafa 2 was roast barley. Wasn't sure so i checked with the wey site. Its listed under chocolate malt, but then mentions that is in in fact a roasted barley. ??

Yes it's roasted but de-husked so no tannins to cause astringency. They actually do a husked version that is useful in beers that need a bit of a twang. (according to the Wey lecture circuit recently). That's one reason I add at mashout to get the benefit without the risk of astringency, but I guess you could sub the whole lot with Carafa3

 

[Dazza_devil]

I recently did a Stout with 500g of the Carafa III and 130g of Roast Barley as dark grains. Only 5 weeks in the bottle but the Carafa III is very roasty without too much acridity, not bad at all. I'm expecting it to smooth out even more and be a very good stout in a couple of months time.

Edit - Just to add, this brew also had 40g Galaxy@60 mins and 27g Magnum@30 mins and it doesn't come across as bitter at all, although there was over 1100g of spec grains all up for 27 litres and it finished at around 1.024.

 

[felten]

I've got a obsidian stout clone atm with 650g of black malt and only 50g of roast barley, not much coffee smell, but its definitely got a bitterness from the black malt, I remember the brewer in the interview described it as a bite from the black malt. If you taste the malt grain itself (bairds is what I was using) its very ashy and burnt, not coffee like at all.

 

[mje1980]

Thanks gents, I do a 90 minute mash so maybe I will leave the dark stuff out until the end. The bitterness I'm feeling is definitely a malt-thing, the Goldings has just smoothed right into the background but I am a bit of a hop hound It might be my language failing me and the word I'm looking for is more likely astringency or something, though I rarely 'pucker' when drinking beer?!

My mash is a pretty simple operation - Batch style - 2 1/2 times grain volume - chuck it all in to get 66C or thereabouts -leave 90minutes, then I ramp up the temperature to reach about 77C after adding 1/2 remaining Boil Volume, leave for 10 minutes, then repeat that step to get my pre boil volume.

So I'd be wanting to trim the Black Malt back a teeny bit - and add it (and Carafa II) once I've finished my First Runnings (in time to have 84C water poured on it to get a 77C mash temp)??


*Yes - I was confused about Carafa II and whether it is Roast Barley or not but I reached the WTH moment and just threw it in anyway and can report it tastes good, I think the coffee flavour is definitely the Black Malt.

For me, i add anything darker than amber at the last 15, except xtals. Let us know!!

 

[manticle]

I'd sub out some of the black, add a small touch of choc and some carafa to make up the colour. 350g seems like a lot of black malt to me. You will also get a fair bit of coffee from roast barley. I believe carafa is a roasted malted barley whereas roast barley usually refers to unmalted barley. Definitely different grains.

I've yet to try that trick of adding dark grains near the finish of the mash as I've not noticed any astringency in my dark beers but those who try it seem to swear by it.

 

[ledgenko]

I think the recipe looks great.. I do wonder if it may be worth your while adding some rolled oats to improve mouth feel of beer. I agree with the idea of late addition of spec grain and alt hops... I think EKG may be the way to go.. still as I said looks like a great recipe to me...

 

[hsb]

Cheers all, gonna get this one down next weekend. I will deffo sub out a bit of that Black Malt (bitey is definitely the right word felten - though it's settling out in the keg now). Don't have choc so will be a bit of Carafa II and some Carapils or something for mouthfeel. This is the last of the Maris Otter so can't up that and I'm not ready for Oats yet but next time around methinks. And I will definitely make the spec grains late additions, EKG definitely works in this one, the hop balance feels very good.

Making the changes quite subtle and moving to late spec grain additions should give me a good contrast to what difference the lower Black Malt and adding it later really makes.

Then I can start planning my next 3-4 brews and get busy putting a grain order together, good times!