Raspberry & Apple Cider Project

[Jase71]

Later today I will be starting a kit cider, which will eventually become raspberry-infused. I think I must have read just about every post relating to raspberry ale on the forums, and it would be fair to say that the best results are going to be from the fruit & juice addition in secondary. The question is, how does one establish the final ABV, considering that fermentables are going to be added between the end of primary and the start of secondary. Here's the scenario, for the number-crunchers out there:

Primary to 18, then 20litres:

• 1.7kg kit can of cider (Black Rock)
• 1kg plain white sugar
• 250grams Dextrose (for a bit more of a kick!)
• Top up to 18 litres
• Kit yeast (why bother with an ale yest, right)
• Yeast Nutrient (iether the kit pack or a teaspoon of Brewcraft nutrient salts)
• After three days, 2litres of apple juice added to fermenter, topping up to 20 litres
• Rack after 7 days from pitching

Secondary Racking to 23litres:

• Another 2 litres preservative-free apple juice
• 1kg raspberries, strained, the 'tea' added to fermenter
• Residual pulp in a muslin bag, and added to fermenter
• Prime and bottle after 7 days in secondary

Let's say there's 10% sugar in the apple juice, that's going to add another 400grams of fermentables. Raspberries have a very low sugar content (<10grams in 1kg), so this probably wont contribute much to gravity change.

So if the OG is taken before pitching, then again at day three after 2 litres of juice is gently stirred in, then a new OG reading after racking to secondary and the second juice with raspberries is added, how does one calculate the true OG for the purposes of establishing ABV? Is it as simple as adding the point variance at stage 2 & 3 to the pre-pitching reading..... I suspect it's probably a bit more complicated than that... ... ...

EDIT: Volume Clarification

 

[reviled]

Man, sounds tasty...

Ive had this problem with a couple of beers ive made, well, a similair problem... One, I added 450mls of Bourbon to the 2ndary, and the other, I added 500mls of Port.. I dont think there would have been any sugars in the Bourbon, but with the Port, the beer definately started fermenting again, so it can be really confusing.. I just ended up guessing :huh:

 

[Nihed]

So if the OG is taken before pitching, then again at day three after 2 litres of juice is gently stirred in, then a new OG reading after racking to secondary and the second juice with raspberries is added, how does one calculate the true OG for the purposes of establishing ABV? Is it as simple as adding the point variance at stage 2 & 3 to the pre-pitching reading..... I suspect it's probably a bit more complicated than that... ... ...

I think you've got the right idea there. When You add some extra fermentables, it will raise the gravity so take a note of the differences and simply add them on to the orginal gravity reading to work out final ABV. Say your OG was 1.040 and first FG was 1.010 and the added fermentables brought it up to 1.025, you added 15 gravity points so it would be like having an original starting gravity of 1.040 + (1.025 -1.010) = 1.055 and then just do the same for the last addition.

At least I think thats how it works...

 

[barls]

id just add the raspberries to the secondary as a mashed up slurry, it also helps if they have been frozen.
the apple juice i use for my cysers has a gravity of 1.040, so id add it to the primary as your not going to get much of aroma from it anyway. also id almost be tempted to use ether s33 or the sweet mead yeast on this.

 

[Jase71]

Hey Barls, a cysyer is similar to the recipe I'm doing, right, but with a definite honey spike ? I've done the wort already, going to pitch at sunset. It's not too late for me to add 1/2 kg pasteurised honey .......On top of the 1kg sugar and 500grams dextrose, that is. I've still no idea what the real OG is going to be calculated as, but I don't mind if this one has a high alc/vol. At present state of 15 litres, I'm reading 1.064 wich would suggest that once I've added the four litres (total) juice to bring it up to 20-21 litres. it's not going to be that strong at all.

I guess to look at it simply, and supposing the 4litres of juice adds 400grams 'sugars', I need to know how fermentable levolose (?) is........

For efficiency of flavour extraction (IMO), and let's face it, less residual junk at racking time, I'm going to avoid throwing a slurry of raspberries straight in. Blocked taps don't appeal at all! I plan to instead warm (not boil) 2litres of juice, and use a blender to mush up the raspberries in that, strain into secondary, then bag up the leftover mush into a muslin bag and thow that in for good measure.

QUOTE: reviled:
Man, sounds tasty...

Ive had this problem with a couple of beers ive made, well, a similair problem... One, I added 450mls of Bourbon to the 2ndary, and the other, I added 500mls of Port.. I dont think there would have been any sugars in the Bourbon, but with the Port, the beer definately started fermenting again, so it can be really confusing.. I just ended up guessing

That sounds interesting, did you post about it anywhere, and if so, links please ? Without going into it now, I plan to do a beer down the track which will include vodka, not so much for the alc. kick, but to sterilise a large-ish qty of plant material that is historically known (in ancient Egypt) to have a very good symbiosis with beer/wine.

Anyway, I'm getting off topic in my own bloody thread. Raspberry Cider, YEAH!

 

[Jase71]

Me again - I should mention that I need to pitch today, and the only yeast i have is recycled S-04 (from a very plain Coopers ferment), an fresh sachet of S-05 , some wine yeast that came with the Oztops kit, and random other stuff that comes stuck to kit cans. But is it really going to make much difference when I have so many other flavours there already ?

While on yeast & stuff, how does the nutrient come into play, and should the kit nutrient be thrown in the bin, in lieu of Brewcraft salts. If so, I have no idea how much to use. In fact I dont even quite understand why it's required, being that I've added other yeast munchies anyway (ie the dex & sugar). ... .. ..

 

[barls]

its pretty close but i do just honey and apple juice. well ill put it this way the cyser i do starts at around 1080 and finishes depending on which yeast, ie champagne at 990 or 1010 with s33 or sweet mead. and thats just juice and honey.
im thinking its going to be around the 10 mark but not sure.
as for the raspberries ive never had a blocked tap even with my raspberry wheats. all i do is just mash with a potato masher, add a camden tablet and leave for 24 hours then add to the fermentor.
ive got a batch of cyser thats been on raspberries for about a month and a half now and im just thinking of racking it but we will se when it happens.

 

[MHB]

Never been happy with Raspberries when I have used them whole, I always find I get a distinct astringency from the seeds, especially if they go into a blender and get crushed up, or boiled for too long.

These days I just use the Cascade Raspberry cordial from Woollies or BiLo.

The fact that it has a nutrition panel on the side that gives the sugar content is helpful.
Tastes great and is as cheep as chips (well compared to raspberries) and makes getting repeatable no fuss results easy. Adds up to a bit of a no brainer for me.

MHB

 

[barls]

the yeast does make a bit of a difference, you need something that fairly neutral and out of what you listed id go for the us05. it will need nutrient as well.

 

[Jase71]

Never been happy with Raspberries when I have used them whole, I always find I get a distinct astringency from the seeds, especially if they go into a blender and get crushed up, or boiled for too long.

These days I just use the Cascade Raspberry cordial from Woollies or BiLo.

The fact that it has a nutrition panel on the side that gives the sugar content is helpful.
Tastes great and is as cheep as chips (well compared to raspberries) and makes getting repeatable no fuss results easy. Adds up to a bit of a no brainer for me.

MHB

I have found that some beers at my local bottleshop that are infused with fruit flavours tend to taste a bit artificial, and the manager claims they are using non natural essences (think about that cheap vanilla essence your mum used to use, then compare it to true vanilla bean extract, this is where Im coming from). So I'm quite happy to take the extra steps in using real fruit, so i know exactly what's in it... ... as for price considerations, while Im far from well off, I don't have much interest in counting pennies when it comes to making something tasty (which is probably why I'm not well off to begin with. Curse the importer of Wagyu Beef ! :lol: )

the yeast does make a bit of a difference, you need something that fairly neutral and out of what you listed id go for the us05. it will need nutrient as well.

US-05 it is then. I beleive that S-04 is also quite neutral, and it would be great to use some trub, but I havent the time today to make a starter. Just to be a pain in the arse, how much yeast nutrient is considered enough ? A couple of teaspoons ? I will use the brewcraft stuff, because I just dont know how efficient the little kit packet of nutes is going to be.

As always since joining this forum, I apreciate your guys' patience and sharing of experience. So cheers.

 

[barls]

if its in a packet id just go one then. it will ferment out. interested to see how this turns out mate.
i find where you get the raspberries from is a big factor in them as well. i prefer farm berries to the supermarket ones.

 

[Jase71]

The whole pack, hey ? That's 100grams of nutrient salts :lol:

I know what you're saying (I think), is that the kit-supplied nutrients (which is 4grams) will suffice. What I don't understand, and hope someone might explain in detail (for my interest's sake, and yes I have UTFSE) as to why a portion of yeast is fine for beers, when even the most basic can+suger mix will suffice, yet a cider goo can + 1kg sugar + 500grams dex does not satisfy the munchies.

Speculation would say that malt is the magic food, and that the fermentables in apple extract isn't enough. But the dex !?

Raspberries at my local fruiterer are REALLY expensive, like $6 for 150 grams. Maybe I should have bitten my tongue when I said that money is no issue, but that's just insane when a kg of frozen fruit is only around $16. And I would think that snap-frozen berries under constant <0 temps would rid the worry of natural yeasts on the surface.

 

[barls]

yeah i was thinking the small 4g ones, for 100g it would most likely be too much for the yeast ether that or the one cell that survived would be sitting on your couch. the raspberries i get are about 23 for 4kgs, but its a bit of a drive to get them mate.

 

[Jase71]

After four days fermenting 15 litres (kit goo + water + coopers yest + blackrock nutrient + 1tsp Brewcraft nutrient)

The OG was 1.064
Four Day reading is 1.054

Which seems to be taking a hell of a lot longer to drop than beer. Is this because of the low wort volume perhaps?

The krausen died down, so I threw in 3litres juice.... and what I get is:

The (fridge chilled) juice OG is 1.045
The wort, with the juice addition at day four is reading 1.044 :huh:

WTF ? I'm of the mind already to not bother trying to work out the final ABV, and just following the steps to the end as outlined above, and when I have a steady gravity reading over a few days, just bottle, age & drink. :icon_cheers:

This may be as good a time as any to ask the question, does an alcohol refractometer give an ABV reading based solely on a single final sample of any given beverage ? If so, this is probably the better way to measure something that has so many additions throughout the life of the fermenation.

 

[Jase71]

BUMP

This is reading a surprising 1.000 FG (that surprised me), so after a week in secondary, Im going to bottle this tomorrow night -

Im wondering, Do the same bulk priming measurements apply for a cider as they do for beer ?

 

[barls]

i prime as per beer