Randy Mosher Pale Ale Water Profile

[ricardo]

I'm using Sydney water and am having no issues with dark beers. However IPA's are a different kettle of fish as I just don't get the hops in the finished beer (i'm using a couple of 1-2 oz in the boil and 3 - 4 dry hopping

My local water profile is CA 13 MG 5 NA 14 SO4 10 CL 28 HCO3 38

My last IPA with additions was CA 100 MG 12 NA 40 SO4 85 (No CL or HC03 listed so I kept this the same)- This was based on the Stone brewing water and they do some awesome IPA's, the end result was a very bitter double IPA but not for the right reasons, the bitterness was too harsh

I've been looking online and a lot of people seems to reference Randy Mosher's profile as the perfect water profile for Pale Ale/IPA

CA 110 MG 18 NA 16 CL 50 SO4 275 (I've cut it down from 300)

The question is for a 5.5 gallon batch, for me to reach this with 11 gallons of mash and sparge water (2 gallons dead space included) I need the following additions according to bru'n water

Gypsum - 16 g
Epsom - 5.6 g
Calcium Chloride 1.6 g
Salt - 0.2

Apparently the high levels of sulphate make the hops zing with the bitterness and allows them to shine through, any less and you get a more rounded bitterness which I believe is what I got before.

The questions are

1) Has anybody tried this water
profile?
2) Are the additions too much?

 

[slash22000]

I use it for every pale ale and IPA. I've never had a problem, they've all come out nice and bitter with no discernible "mineral" flavour some people report from high sulfates. I wouldn't use it with a black IPA or other darker beer though, your mash might dissolve the kettle.

Randy knows what he's talking about. Tasty McDole also uses the same profile for his hoppy beers. I'm pretty much willing to take everything either of them say as gospel until proved otherwise.

 

[ricardo]

I use it for every pale ale and IPA. I've never had a problem, they've all come out nice and bitter with no discernible "mineral" flavour some people report from high sulfates. I wouldn't use it with a black IPA or other darker beer though, your mash might dissolve the kettle.

Randy knows what he's talking about. Tasty McDole also uses the same profile for his hoppy beers. I'm pretty much willing to take everything either of them say as gospel until proved otherwise.

I'm interested in why you say no for a black IPA as I'm planning on making one in the next month with 6% dark malts, surely that's not too much??

 

[slash22000]

Some people find the combination of dark malts with very high sulfates to be unpleasant. I've never made a black IPA with Randy's profile myself so I can't attest to it personally. You also have to worry about mash pH - all the salts added with Randy's profile makes for a reasonably potent acidic combo. I don't know if you have a way to test pH, but Randy's salts mixed with more acidic dark grains might lower the pH too much. Just something to keep in mind.

You might try sticking to a more restrained profile for your first black IPA and then try stepping it up later on so you have a way to compare? Just make sure calcium is over 50 and chloride/sulfate ratio is ~1:3 (1 part chloride to 3 parts sulfate). EDIT: Just realised your original profile coincidentally hits the 1:3 ratio almost exactly. 28 CL to 85 SO4 = 1.00:3.04

 

[ricardo]

I use it for every pale ale and IPA. I've never had a problem, they've all come out nice and bitter with no discernible "mineral" flavour some people report from high sulfates. I wouldn't use it with a black IPA or other darker beer though, your mash might dissolve the kettle.

Randy knows what he's talking about. Tasty McDole also uses the same profile for his hoppy beers. I'm pretty much willing to take everything either of them say as gospel until proved otherwise.

Thanks for the info appreciate it

Sorry forgot to ask, do you make similar salt additions to the one's I posted

 

[slash22000]

I change my salt additions depending on the beer I'm making. An amber ale will have different additions to a pale ale etc.

 

[ricardo]

I change my salt additions depending on the beer I'm making. An amber ale will have different additions to a pale ale etc.

that's what I mean, for a pale ale

 

[mabrungard]

Randy's Pale Ale profile is essentially what is presented as the Pale Ale profile in Bru'n Water. That profile has been used successfully by thousands of brewers. It is does not produce a minerally character in beer. The combination of high sulfate with low chloride avoids minerally character.

I concur that if brewing a beer with significant roastiness, the sulfate content should probably be dialed back a bit. I would decrease it to under 200 ppm.

 

[ricardo]

Randy's Pale Ale profile is essentially what is presented as the Pale Ale profile in Bru'n Water. That profile has been used successfully by thousands of brewers. It is does not produce a minerally character in beer. The combination of high sulfate with low chloride avoids minerally character.

I concur that if brewing a beer with significant roastiness, the sulfate content should probably be dialed back a bit. I would decrease it to under 200 ppm.

Thanks for the info Martin i'm going to give this a shot next week, one last thing regarding a beer with significant roastiness and cutting the sulphate back to under 200, would you keep the chloride the same or reduce also?

 

[bum]

However IPA's are a different kettle of fish as I just don't get the hops in the finished beer (i'm using a couple of 1-2 oz in the boil

~50g of hops in the boil and water is your problem?

Doubt it.

 

[mabrungard]

Thanks for the info Martin i'm going to give this a shot next week, one last thing regarding a beer with significant roastiness and cutting the sulphate back to under 200, would you keep the chloride the same or reduce also?

I don't feel you need to cut the chloride. It will be a good compliment in this case.

 

[ricardo]

I don't feel you need to cut the chloride. It will be a good compliment in this case.

Hi Martin just done a few calculations on your spreadsheet and have a quick question.

It states that my estimated PH of the mash at room temperature will be 5.2 and gives me a green box. Doesn't this mean that the PH at actual mash temperature would be about 4.9, is that not too low?

 

[slash22000]

pH measured at room temperature is the true pH. You want the pH to measure 5.2 at room temperature. Measured at mash temperature it will be incorrect.

 

[manticle]

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=702.0

The mash temp pH is still true slash. Temperature changes actual pH. You can measure mash temp pH and ensure that it is within correct range for that temp but you are better off cooling to room temp and using that.

 

[slash22000]

Well I'll be damned. Good pick up.

 

[Spiesy]

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=702.0

The mash temp pH is still true slash. Temperature changes actual pH. You can measure mash temp pH and ensure that it is within correct range for that temp but you are better off cooling to room temp and using that.

But would you have time to adjust the pH of the mash once it cooled? If a small sample, I guess you would...

Sorry, new to water chem. Have only began adding salts a few brews ago.
Have a pH probe, just need to get some distilled water to calibrate it, then I'll be giving this a go.

So I suppose I'm asking, should you draw off a little "wort" at mash temp - as soon as you've mashed and stirred, cool, and then take a reading and adjust if necessary. Or is it more for taking notes for the next brew?

 

[slash22000]

I'm not a pH expert or anything, but I've read a lot of debate as to whether or not to bother trying to adjust the mash on the fly. A lot of people seem to use mash pH as a "Something to note for the next brew" sort of thing.

That being said it shouldn't take long to cool down a sample, it's not like you're sampling entire litres worth of wort.

 

[Spiesy]

Understood.

Would the mash pH change over time as more "things" are absorbed into the wort from the grain?

 

[slash22000]

Yes. The consensus seems to be the ideal time to measure is around 15 - 20 minutes into the mash.

 

[manticle]

Well I'll be damned. Good pick up.

Most pH tests have been carried out on cool/room temp wort though so it is better practice to use room temp samples to emulate. Also better for pH meters to be measuring at lower temp.