Question about oak - More Oak = less time? Filtering impact? Does temp

[GrumpyPaul]

I have done a brew once before using oak chips (way back when I had no idea what I was doing) but I am planning on doing another one soon and have been DASFFSing bit about it.

From what I have read 1g/L seems to be the recommended amount of oak chips to use and generally leave it on the oak until you are happy there is enough oakiness by tasting periodically.

Would it be a case that if I used more than 1g/L of oak that the amount of time to get the desired flavour would be less because there would be more surface area of the oak?

I am planning on soaking the oak in bourbon for a couple of weeks before transferring onto the oak into a secondary.

Last time I did it I poured the oak and bourbon in - while it was still very nice the bourbon flavour was a bit stronger than I wanted. This time I will drain the bourbon off and just throw the soaked oak in.

I am also thinking I might use a keg for the secondary (with the oak in it) and then transfer via filter to another keg for serving.

Would the filter have any adverse effect and strip the oak flavour?

Given I am going to use a keg for secondary and it will be sealed up tight and purged of oxygen - it won’t matter if I leave it in in the fermenting fridge or not.

Does the temperature have any effect on the oakiing?

 

[TimT]

Good questions... which I don't know the answer to either. Having got some oak chips recently and used them in two or three brews (one still in progress), I'd be interested in finding out myself

 

[mje1980]

Give it a go and report back, shouldn't hurt??. I have a brett porter with rum soaked oak chips that's been sitting for months. It's pretty much ready to bottle and I'm keen to somehow save those chips for the next funky beer that goes in my funky cube.

Save the cubes too

More oak should equal less time but I think it's one of those suck it and see things. Mine have been in the beer months and it tastes quite nice, rummy with slight oak. I think it takes ageing to bring out vanilla but I'm far from an expert.

 

[QldKev]

Would it be a case that if I used more than 1g/L of oak that the amount of time to get the desired flavour would be less because there would be more surface area of the oak?
Yes and no. You will get more oak flavor, but you will sacrifice the mellowing properties of the oak. Also where possible try and minimise contact with the end grain as it's know to be more astringent. So one long piece is better than two shorter ones.

Would the filter have any adverse effect and strip the oak flavour?
Not 100% sure, but my guess would be no. Why not filter prior to oaking?

Does the temperature have any effect on the oakiing?
Temperature swings and higher temperatures both increase the rate.

 

[GrumpyPaul]

Thanks Kev....

Would it be a case that if I used more than 1g/L of oak that the amount of time to get the desired flavour would be less because there would be more surface area of the oak?
Yes and no. You will get more oak flavor, but you will sacrifice the mellowing properties of the oak. Also where possible try and minimise contact with the end grain as it's know to be more astringent. So one long piece is better than two shorter ones.

I'll be using chips - so it might be a bit difficult to avoid the end grain.

Would the filter have any adverse effect and strip the oak flavour?
Not 100% sure, but my guess would be no. Why not filter prior to oaking?

I was thinking of filtering after oaking because I want to oak in the keg - it seems that if I am going to transfer from one keg (with the oak) to another (without) I might as well do it via the filter.

Does the temperature have any effect on the oakiing?
Temperature swings and higher temperatures both increase the rate.

Good - it isnt going to matter then if the keg it is oaking in sits in the shed and the temps go up and down a a bit. (frees up the fermenting fridge for the next batch sooner too)

thanks Kev

 

[ricardo]

Would you Star San the oak first or would that strip the bourbon flavor?

 

[mje1980]

I reckon the bourbon would do a good job of killing nasties

 

[Mutaneer]

Kind of related, and my thoughts.

I've bought a new charred oak barrrel to age some ciders in.

Going to fill it with bourbon and age that for 6 months to
a) make cheap bourbon better
b) impart some extra flavour into the barrel
c) should kill off any nasties that may be hiding in there
d) reduce the charcoal flavour a bit.

I then plan on dropping in my cider for a couple of months/ weeks until i'm happy with the flavours.

Maybe do a couple of batches of aging, then another bourbon or whiskey cycled through to top up the flavours and "sterilise"

after speaking with some local producers, they recommended putting it in a room that does change temperature to speed up the aging process
SO as teh wood expands and contract to the changes in temp, it will work as a sponge to suck in and squeeze out the brew more often

 

[barls]

I find chips have about a two week max time frame. Cubes are better and give a rounder flavour but take longer. Dominos are even longer still

 

[TimT]

Woah. If cubes give a rounder flavour do spheres give a square flavour?

I'm fascinated that the shape of the oak is considered to affect flavour!

Must admit I had some mead on some chips for more than a month and it doesn't seem to have become over-oaked. (Not that many chips, I think, which is why the flavour wasn't badly affected; it was my first effort at oaking after all). This advice is invaluable. Thanks folks!

 

[marksy]

You can buy bourbon barrel chips from some hbs.

 

[QldKev]

Woah. If cubes give a rounder flavour do spheres give a square flavour?

I'm fascinated that the shape of the oak is considered to affect flavour!

Must admit I had some mead on some chips for more than a month and it doesn't seem to have become over-oaked. (Not that many chips, I think, which is why the flavour wasn't badly affected; it was my first effort at oaking after all). This advice is invaluable. Thanks folks!

My understanding is the less end grain the longer it takes, but nicer the product results. Think of a barrel, there is virtually no end grain in contact with the contents.

My 2c, if you are going to age a RIS or something for a while, use less chips and leave them in longer.

 

[barls]

also less surface area. cubes are generally 1cm cubes and dominos are about 1 cm thick, 2-3 wide and about 7-10 long.

 

[GrumpyPaul]

I have the grain for two batches of the same scottish ale that I plan on oaking.

I will do one with 1g/L and the second with 2g/l and see the effect and report back.

 

[TimT]

So if you were going for vanilla flavours which apparently come out after a long ageing process, would you just go with a relatively small amount of oak?

My most recent brew, a creamy vanilla porter, had some oak bobbing about in it for a few days, along with cloves, a vanilla bean, and a cinnamon stick. Didn't take long for the vanilla flavour to catch. I accept the flavour is mostly from the vanilla bean but I'm wondering - can the flavours from one ingredient tend to intensify the flavours from the other ingredients? ie, did the oak work with the bean and cloves to bring out one another's vanillay-ness, the tannins, and some woodiness? Or does this effect really need time to became pronounced too?

 

[MHB]

The old is 2 teabags for 5 minutes the same as 1 teabag for 10 minutes - short answer is no
other point to think about is that French and American Oak give quite different flavours as does toasted and un-toasted
the shape of the wood also plays a role, if you have a barrel and the patience that will give the finest flavour, Battons, dominos, cubes, chips, powder all give a coarser flavour faster, in order of surface area to mass
what was in the old barrel (if anything - Rum, Whisky and Bourbon are all readily available) will also give flavour.

Oak aging really is very complex and often fairly random, can be a lot of fun or a complete disaster, all part of brewing.
Mark