Pushing Beer

[Shine]

To all my wonderful been-there-failed-miserably-found-a-solution-and-fixed-the-problem friends out there... I'm having a major issuing with pushing beer. I'm in the process of getting the materials to finish my kegerator but I'm having some pretty consistent problems with maintaining good push pressure with my CO2 and I'd like to get them worked out before my kegerator becomes a really good means of creating foamy messes (I can do that fine enough on my own, thank you very much).

At the moment, i'm carbonating a cold keg at 300 kPa for 24 hours, which does a really good job of hitting the mark. I connect the keg (currently) to the CO2 and I've found that about 20 kPa creates the best pushing rate. Anything higher results in foamy mess (see exerpt in parens in the above paragraph) and anything at about 20 or below results in the regulator basically closing off and no longer pushing the beer.

Any best practices out there? Is it the regulator?

My kegerator is an upright that I've mounted 3 taps on. Once all of the gear comes in the plan is to run the beer line (in a logical manner, something on the order of 1 meter or so from each keg) and to run the gas line through the sidewall (don't worry, the fridge is just an insulated box with a chiller plate on the back wall) with two coupled T-conectors (creating 3 lines) inside leading to the kegs.

Thoughts?

 

[Supra-Jim]

Hi there Shine,

Check out the articles section. There is a very good document on balancing a draught system. Essentially your 'push' pressure is a balance between the length and diameter of your beer line (effectively the system resistance). The temp your beer is stored at also plays a part.

Check out the article. http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=24

Cheers SJ

 

[Pennywise]

Something doesn't sound right from OP's explaination. Even if the reg & gas were disconnected a fully carbed keg will still push beer through the lines, I mean I can push half a keg out with out any gas except whats in the keg.

 

[Cocko]

How long are your beer lines now? And are you using restricted flow taps?

I serve at 100 kpa, 20 sounds stupidly low to me.....

 

[michael_aussie]

How long are your beer lines now? And are you using restricted flow taps?

I serve at 100 kpa, 20 sounds stupidly low to me.....

+1 ..
20kPa is very low???

I have Celli taps, pressurise up to around 200kPa.
Close the taps off and pour excellent beer.
As the pressure drops, I open the flow controller of the Celli's up and continue to pour great beers.
When I have no pressure left (beer stops coming out), I repeat the process.

If you have the right length of lines, you should be able to use more than 20kPa ......

my 2c

 

[thesunsettree]

What sort of taps have you got? I unknowingly had the cheap chinese font and tap and when u pulled them apart the metal that came in contact with the beer was all browny and tarnished and hence the beer was reacting when it came in contact with it creating massive foaming. At best i coulf only pour at 2-4 psi, 14-28 kpa. A recent investment in a quality font and 3 ss perlicks, from a site sponsor and voila i'm dispensing easily at around 70-100kpa and beer is holding carbonation spot on. Also no tainting flavour from the shitty tap/font. Couldnt be happier, money well spent. May not be your issue but maybe worth considering

Cheers matt

 

[Shine]

How long are your beer lines now? And are you using restricted flow taps?

I serve at 100 kpa, 20 sounds stupidly low to me.....

At the moment, I'm using about a meter of 10mm line and bronco taps (got them from a friend here who used to brew) and it is a bad solution but I'm building a kegerator with 6mm line (I haven't cut the line yet) and stainless steel micromatic fridge fonts. I'd prefer to get it right in the design phase before set everything in place.

With my current configuration (so bloody newbie) I'm running multiple kegs off of one CO2 bottle and just hitting it to top the pressure up when the pour goes slow but when I run one the best I can do is set it at 20kpa to get a constant pour.... probably because of the lines but maybe over-carbonation? I haven't invested in creating a multi-keg CO2 connection because I'm buliding the fridge.

With my fridge, I mounted the taps at the top of the door so the barbs inside are about a meter above the keg plugs. I've got about 15m of 6mm beer line for 3 kegs so it really is just a matter of getting the length right. At the moment, I'm carbonating a keg in the fridge with 2 others so I think I'll forego drilling more holes and just keep the bottle in the fridge with the kegs. Just need to build a three-way splitter off the bottle to hit all of the kegs at the same time; that's easy.

The other thing I'm thinking is that I'm experimenting a lot. I currently have a pale and IPA, a Belgian and a hard lemonade (still in the recipe-perfection phase), but I've also done a wheaten honeywine and I'd like to get a good heffeweizen under my belt as a regular. If I'm being this diverse in style, does it justify something crazy like having a regulator on every keg? The system gets really complicated when I start thinking like that...

I'm also thinking with this much diversity, I'd just go big: convert a chest freezer that holds six kegs with 6 fonts and the CO2 bottle and invest a little time with the gas and beer line set up. With my current fridge, once the IPA goes out (happens often for some damn reason), I can't have another one loaded in and ready for about a week unless I naturally carbonate or disconnect the others for 24 hours until I can get the new one primed. Neither of those is ideal... thoughts? 6 kegs at once.... should I just start attending meetings now?

 

[Shine]

Hi there Shine,

Check out the articles section. There is a very good document on balancing a draught system. Essentially your 'push' pressure is a balance between the length and diameter of your beer line (effectively the system resistance). The temp your beer is stored at also plays a part.

Check out the article. http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=24

Cheers SJ

Excellent article! Thanks! Let me know when you get that Leffe clone done. That's good stuff... Anyone seen a Schneider weiss or Franziskaner clone?

 

[Shine]

What sort of taps have you got? I unknowingly had the cheap chinese font and tap and when u pulled them apart the metal that came in contact with the beer was all browny and tarnished and hence the beer was reacting when it came in contact with it creating massive foaming. At best i coulf only pour at 2-4 psi, 14-28 kpa. A recent investment in a quality font and 3 ss perlicks, from a site sponsor and voila i'm dispensing easily at around 70-100kpa and beer is holding carbonation spot on. Also no tainting flavour from the shitty tap/font. Couldnt be happier, money well spent. May not be your issue but maybe worth considering

Cheers matt

More below but currently, I'm using some stuff my friend gave me before he left. 1m of 10mm line with bronco taps. Cheap but not good for sure....

 

[Shine]

How long are your beer lines now? And are you using restricted flow taps?

I serve at 100 kpa, 20 sounds stupidly low to me.....

more above but I'm currently using 1m x 10mm line with bronco taps. Anything over 20 is Foamasaurus Rex (that *******!) I just want to get the setup right for my kegerator at this point.

Considering I'll primarily be doing ales I'm going to shoot for about a 10 C fridge. I've got 6mm beer line and plenty of it. Any thoughts on length?

 

[razz]

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=24
Use the balancing table at the bottom of the article Shine.

 

[barls]

id try a smaller diameter line on them personally. mine are 6mm id and im thinking thats pushing it.

 

[Shine]

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=24
Use the balancing table at the bottom of the article Shine.

Something seems off. 4mm line x 1.7 meters vs 6mm line x 6.5 meters. Is there really that much disparity between 2mm?

 

[Supra-Jim]

Yeah, do a quick calculation to compare the cross sectional area of 4mm line verses 6mm line, you will see your difference there. Remember you need to find the 'magic resistance' to keep as much Co2 in solution. Three things will bring CO2 out of solution, temperature (as temp increases less Co2 remains in solution), pressure (as pressure decreases, more Co2 is released, agitation (the more the beer is agitated, too much resistance, the more Co2 leaves solution).

good Luck! SJ

 

[lespaul]

Yeah, do a quick calculation to compare the cross sectional area of 4mm line verses 6mm line, you will see your difference there. Remember you need to find the 'magic resistance' to keep as much Co2 in solution. Three things will bring CO2 out of solution, temperature (as temp increases less Co2 remains in solution), pressure (as pressure decreases, more Co2 is released, agitation (the more the beer is agitated, too much resistance, the more Co2 leaves solution).

good Luck! SJ

just to check, the effects of having line which is too long is that there is more resistance and more CO2 leaving solution, resulting in foamy beer.
And if its too short there is not enough resistance and with the beer coming out too fast it produces foam.
So if my line is say 2.5m when it says it should be 1.5m i really should be cutting it down to the right size?
I ask because i have to have serving pressure really low too, otherwise nothing but head. Is it worth cutting down a line on one of the kegs and see how it goes in comparison?

 

[razz]

Before you go cutting your line LP make sure you have got the keg carbed up correctly, then when you are happy with temp/pressure look at line length.

 

[Shine]

...pushing 4mm beer line over the 6mm-ish barbed end of a keg quick connect is roughly the same as trying to put a condom on a school bus

 

[Bizier]

I am unsure on the 4mm line, but boiling water is the trick for getting 6mm line on a standard barb.

I got some of the pvc style beverage line from the US, and the ID is (I think) around 8mm or so, and I found that it was impossible to serve through. I purchased a pre-made portable bronco tap line using this stuff and it was a fail, I think I would have to have my keg at -1C to be able to manage a pour. I since changed to your regular flexmaster stuff and it pours a treat. That couple of mm makes an enormous difference.

I made two lines of the four in my fridge extra long so I could serve higher pressure beers better, but to be honest, I have not really taken much notice. When you get your system balanced, you will get to a point where it will just work, and you will be able to pre-empt issues with minor adjustments.

 

[Ross]

just to check, the effects of having line which is too long is that there is more resistance and more CO2 leaving solution, resulting in foamy beer.
And if its too short there is not enough resistance and with the beer coming out too fast it produces foam.
So if my line is say 2.5m when it says it should be 1.5m i really should be cutting it down to the right size?
I ask because i have to have serving pressure really low too, otherwise nothing but head. Is it worth cutting down a line on one of the kegs and see how it goes in comparison?

What are you pouring through? Font & taps?

cheers Ross

 

[lespaul]

I think i have 2.4m of 5mm line on taps... I have tried combinations of temp and pressure and not much success. Im currently carbonating and using enough pressure to only push the beer, this works pretty well, but with relatively random results.

I was under the impression that i should have a steady pressure of 50-100kpa and it should be left like that for serving. On my current setup i cant do this. Although I didnt realise that too much line can create too much friction and more froth? time to get out the scissors?

Cheers


Also I have a one way valve just after the regulator, but i doubt that has much to do with carbonation (unless it makes it easy to overcarb? :S), thanks again